Scriptoria & Scribes

[MedievalMan]

I personally feel BF falls within the 1300 to 1500 time period, just by the presence of plate armor alone (of course plate mail can be taken to mean a number of things from the bronze armor worn by hoplites to a full suit of chain mail enhanced by strategically placed solid metal plates). But personally the biggest indicator of time period is the currency used. For the vast majority of civilized history in Europe silver the was most common form of trade currency, it was only in the latter half of the medieval period that gold was introduced and used as a more common form of currency, and even then only amongst the wealthy. So gold as primary currency = late medieval time period. Heck the fact every town has a tavern and inn, alongside the use of gold as money, says to me the setting is almost renaissance in period.

As for magic items, whose to say that they don't degrade over time? So that bronze shortsword that was +1 800 years ago might be nothing more than a pitted hunk of scrap in today's time. Like a lot of things it depends on the campaign world.

[Solomoriah]

I suppose your point has merit... but... a major component of many existing adventures is the recovery of magic items from ancient ruins. I rest my case.

[MedievalMan]

Well it makes sense that magic items can still be found in dungeons and old ruins. In those locations they are free from the corroding influence of the surface environment. Laying safe in a dry, moisture free, temperature controlled tomb does wonders for just about anything.

Heck maybe the earth itself has some latent magical field that keeps items in close proximity "charged up". So items magic items that would have faded out over time on the surface are still functional because they have been kept underground, closer to the "field".

[Sir Bedivere]

In the real world, chain hauberks (in effect, shirts with skirts) gave way to full chainmail suits in time. Similarly, some weapons improved with time, and some weapons came and went as a matter of fashion.

But now I give you the lowly Shortsword +1, made of magically hardened bronze back in the ancient times of your game world. A "modern" Thief, or even a Fighter, would happily strap it on and use it because of its magic, whereas in the real world, ancient weapons go into museums. So you'd see armor or weapons possibly hundreds of years old still in service for their magical benefits.

Interesting. I never assumed magic changed the physical nature of the material, so a +1 weapon was magically guided to the target's vulnerable spots, but still had the same material qualities. I.e., in my campaign world, your magic bronze sword would still have as good a chance of bending or breaking on mundane iron plates as a normal bronze sword would. (Though, of course, I haven't really considered bronze weapons in my campaign and have no rules for them.)

But you're right that these things would continue being used. The +1 would be a good enough reason for some warriors. A +2 or 3 one would certainly be kept in use for as long as the weapon lasted.

Likewise, consider the effects of elven longevity. An elf in his 500s might still be wearing the same weapons and armor as he did in his 50s, if they are well taken care of and refurbished from time to time.

[Sir Bedivere]

I'm not sure I would consider silver vs. gold as an important point of comparison. That could just be an indicator that gold is more easily available in the fantasy world, for example.

More important would be the inn & tavern in every town, and plate armor. Also, the Reformers would fit that time period, more or less. If we accept a 1300-1500 era, that would mean the major cities would probably have a university each: Beth, Novatia, and Slateholm. Would elves, dwarves, or halflings develop universities? (Maybe that's a question for later, but it's interesting.)

However, if we look at land usage, we're still faced with massive swathes of wilderness and very few cities. The cities themselves are not as easy to travel between as European continental cities. This might indicate less economic development than the 1300-1500s. A lower level of economic development would make sense as well if it is a more violent world where economic expansion is actively resisted by monster hordes and trade is more dangerous than in the historical world. This might mean there are no universities.

Edit: OTOH, the possible presence of a Thieves Guild in Slateholm indicates a lot of stuff to steal. Maybe economic development is really driven by the sea trade.

In any case, a 2- or 3-century window would seem right. Some things in the fantasy world would be more developed and some would be less developed than any given historical point in the real world.

[Sir Bedivere]

Right you both are.

LibraryLass: Yep, and that's one of the main topics for this supplement - How would the fantasy aspects of our game modify the historical stuff? Do you have any thoughts on what would be changed?

Well, the thing that seems most immediately obvious to me is that the presence of sapient races that can be reasoned with diplomatically (not to mention magic that simplifies overland and underwater travel) means that more about the world's topography (and possibly the species that live in remote places) will be known (at least to magic-users) than was known at any time before the last 100 years or so.
The ability to commune with gods and things like that through magic also means that (depending on the amount of knowledge the gods have, of course-- no good if they're no more knowledgeable about the nature of their own creation than the mortals that inhabit it) many of the questions that drive science, history, and philosophy in our world are easily answerable.

That's a good point, even if we take the gods out of the equation. I wonder how MUs and other scholars would be able to use these methods. For example, to stick with my mermaids assisting with marine exploration, what would they charge for their services? The literature of wizards suggests many possible bargains a magician might be forced to make to learn from these creatures. Also, they can lie.

[Sir Bedivere]

Let's talk about languages. Is there a Latin-like language? Maybe Old Urdish? (We could call it Classical Urdish if we wanted it to sound scholarly.) Or, if Common is the contemporary language in the game, maybe just Urdish.

[MedievalMan]

It also depends on where the campaign takes place. Maybe most campaigns take place on the borderlands because that's where all the un-plundered ruins are? Playing as an adventurer doesn't really give one the whole spectrum of medieval-fantasy life. Who's to say near the center of the more established kingdoms that you wouldn't find universities and trade guilds and such? I think the primary thing such institutions need is political and economic stability.

In all honesty, your average RPG world more readily resembles the Wild West than any point of actual European history except maybe the dark ages. Feudal anarchy and all that.

I'm not sure I would consider silver vs. gold as an important point of comparison. That could just be an indicator that gold is more easily available in the fantasy world, for example.

More important would be the inn & tavern in every town, and plate armor. Also, the Reformers would fit that time period, more or less. If we accept a 1300-1500 era, that would mean the major cities would probably have a university each: Beth, Novatia, and Slateholm. Would elves, dwarves, or halflings develop universities? (Maybe that's a question for later, but it's interesting.)

However, if we look at land usage, we're still faced with massive swathes of wilderness and very few cities. The cities themselves are not as easy to travel between as European continental cities. This might indicate less economic development than the 1300-1500s. A lower level of economic development would make sense as well if it is a more violent world where economic expansion is actively resisted by monster hordes and trade is more dangerous than in the historical world. This might mean there are no universities.

Edit: OTOH, the possible presence of a Thieves Guild in Slateholm indicates a lot of stuff to steal. Maybe economic development is really driven by the sea trade.

In any case, a 2- or 3-century window would seem right. Some things in the fantasy world would be more developed and some would be less developed than any given historical point in the real world.

[LibraryLass]

Right you both are.

LibraryLass: Yep, and that's one of the main topics for this supplement - How would the fantasy aspects of our game modify the historical stuff? Do you have any thoughts on what would be changed?

Well, the thing that seems most immediately obvious to me is that the presence of sapient races that can be reasoned with diplomatically (not to mention magic that simplifies overland and underwater travel) means that more about the world's topography (and possibly the species that live in remote places) will be known (at least to magic-users) than was known at any time before the last 100 years or so.
The ability to commune with gods and things like that through magic also means that (depending on the amount of knowledge the gods have, of course-- no good if they're no more knowledgeable about the nature of their own creation than the mortals that inhabit it) many of the questions that drive science, history, and philosophy in our world are easily answerable.

That's a good point, even if we take the gods out of the equation. I wonder how MUs and other scholars would be able to use these methods. For example, to stick with my mermaids assisting with marine exploration, what would they charge for their services? The literature of wizards suggests many possible bargains a magician might be forced to make to learn from these creatures. Also, they can lie.

Yes, but then other wizards can cast Water Breathing and investigate the depths for themselves, for instance. Then mermaids become to the sea what Sherpas are to the Himalayas. As to what the mermaids want, that's an interesting question worthy of thought. I tend to assume that all humanoids and demihumans are basically alike to humans in the way they process needs, with the thought processes being less human the further you go (so for instance intelligent dragons are going to be a lot more alien than all but the weirdest humanoids), so presumably they want useful things or occasionally treasure.

MedievalMan, you make an excellent point there-- the sort of border territories adventurers spend most of their time around is less 1300s France and more 1800s Colorado or New Mexico.

[Sir Bedivere]

Yes, but then other wizards can cast Water Breathing and investigate the depths for themselves, for instance. Then mermaids become to the sea what Sherpas are to the Himalayas. As to what the mermaids want, that's an interesting question worthy of thought. I tend to assume that all humanoids and demihumans are basically alike to humans in the way they process needs, with the thought processes being less human the further you go (so for instance intelligent dragons are going to be a lot more alien than all but the weirdest humanoids), so presumably they want useful things or occasionally treasure.

MedievalMan, you make an excellent point there-- the sort of border territories adventurers spend most of their time around is less 1300s France and more 1800s Colorado or New Mexico.

That all makes sense, both LibraryLass & MedievalMan.

I'm using the Morgansfort setting as a sort of default BF world because, as much as BF has a default culture, that seems to be it. Maybe that's not the best decision. What do you folks think about that? Should we be more generic?

Edit: I also thought we should look at Glain, which is another BF setting with a long history. I've never looked at it before, but there are a lot more cities and general economic development in that setting than in the Morgansfort setting.

Or should we just decide to create two parts, one for early and one for late Middle Ages? Or do you folks have another idea?