Preparing for my first session as GM

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Mars
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Re: Preparing for my first session as GM

Post by Mars »

At the end of the previous session the players had all the coin they could carry, so they decided to go back to Morgansfort to spend some of their cash. Last night we started the fourth session in Morgansfort. A few unexpected things came up right away, and I sort of had to deal with them on the fly. I wasn't really satisfied with all the decisions I made, and I wanted to post here in hopes of more feedback and perspective.

None of the players have earned enough XP to level up yet, so they're all still very vulnerable and at risk of one-hit deaths. Because of that, I was hoping this first shopping trip back to town would provide them with some tangible advantages--a sense that they were improving their situation, that the risks they had taken were resulting in actual benefit. For the clerics and the fighter the shopping trip did that--they bought equipment that improved their AC. For the magic user and the thieves, there didn't seem to be much they could buy to help themselves out. (The magic user has claimed the Ring of Protection +1 for himself, so he's got something to show for his efforts, but the thieves don't really have much except for coin.)

The main halfling thief (there are two people playing identical-statistic characters based on the Barthal pregen from the back of the Morgansfort book, but one guy has only played in two sessions, whereas the other has played in all four) wanted to hire somebody to carry gold and help serve as a buffer in battle. I had him ask around to see if he could find a retainer, and I rolled 2d6 and got a 3 (no Charisma modifier for this character), which is outright refusal. I explained it as though the party had gotten the town's attention with their first successful expedition, but people haven't yet been impressed enough to trust them with their lives.

The halfing's next idea was to buy a pony to help carry loot and, if needs be, to feed to the monsters while the party makes a hasty retreat. I wasn't so sure a pony would be willing to go down into a dungeon, but I didn't really see anything saying it was impossible, so I've allowed it.

The halfling still had plenty of money left, so the next thing he wanted to buy was more healing potions. I told them Father Thelbain would be willing to sell them additional potions as he believed the party were involved with God's work. Then I looked through the rulebook, but I couldn't find any price for healing potions. On the fly, I said the father would sell them potions for 30gp each. The halfling immediately said he wanted to buy 10 potions! I allowed that too, but said the priests would need time to create more, so only 10 were available (though honestly even 10 seems kind of excessive to me).

The rest of the party bought some more equipment--oil flasks and iron spikes and stuff like that.
And then they went back to the dungeon. I'll probably describe what happened in another post later. But for now I'm very interested in hearing if anybody has any thoughts or advice about some of the stuff I mentioned above. Mainly:

What are the best ways for low-level thieves to improve their circumstances through purchases?

How much should healing potions cost? What kind of limitations, or problems, might arise from making them a buyable item?

Any thoughts you're willing to share would be appreciated. Thanks!
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Boggo
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Re: Preparing for my first session as GM

Post by Boggo »

Dartmoor and Shetland ponies were both used in deep coal mines before steam engines, so the pony wont be an issue

You undervalued the Healing potions a LOT, according to the magic item creation rules on page 187 of the 4e rulebook, it takes 8 days to make a batch (each potion dose in the batch reduces the % chance of success by 5%) chance of success is; 15% plus 5% per level of the spellcaster, plus the spellcaster's full Intelligence (if a Magic-User) or Wisdom (if a Cleric). Though healing potions will require a Cleric as it emulates Cure Light Wounds a level 1 Cleric spell.

The time required is one week plus one day per spell level (or equivalent), and the cost to enchant the item is 50 gp per spell level, per day. So a Healing potion will take 8 days, and cost 400gp to make. Thats production cost, for something that takes 8 days to make I'd put a pretty decent markup... Now Father Thelbain is a 6th level Cleric, and assuming a Wisdom of 15 will have a 60% chance to make a single potion in 8 days, 55% chance of 2, 50% chance of 3 etc. Each one costing him 400gp to make (if he succeeds or not), since they are 8 days worth of work, I'd throw a 50% markup on the price myself and charge 600gp (since he has no competition in Morgansfort, and he's got a BIG sunk cost in the potions).

The Equipment Emporium has some handy for Thieves stuff (specifically page 17, page 18 for the descriptions) but honestly one of the things about the Thief class is, it's the cheap one to get into the dungeon, they require less than most of the other classes when it comes to $$ which means they end up the rich ones :D
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Mars
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Re: Preparing for my first session as GM

Post by Mars »

Thank you, Boggo. Your reasoning and explanation of healing potions and their cost is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Now I'll have a much better understanding of it, going forward.

Re: thief equipment, I'll have to download the Equipment Emporium and look through it to see if I can come up with any suggestions, next time they're in town.
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Boggo
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Re: Preparing for my first session as GM

Post by Boggo »

And a picture of a Pit-Pony!
pit-pony.jpg
pit-pony.jpg (11.68 KiB) Viewed 807 times
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Solomoriah
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Re: Preparing for my first session as GM

Post by Solomoriah »

The breakdown of costs you gave is for one potion; note that there are rules for making multiple doses at once at a discount.
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Boggo
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Re: Preparing for my first session as GM

Post by Boggo »

Solomoriah wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:44 am The breakdown of costs you gave is for one potion; note that there are rules for making multiple doses at once at a discount.
Actually the reverse is true, as it's currently written it's MORE expensive because it takes an extra day per additional dose

Page 191 of R111
For each additional dose created at the same time, reduce the chance of success by 5% and increase the time required by one day. Note that increasing the time required will directly increase the cost. If the roll to create the item fails, the entire batch is spoiled.
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CrudRollingCrusader
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Re: Preparing for my first session as GM

Post by CrudRollingCrusader »

“Actually the reverse is true…”


Danggg bro just schooled the teacher
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Solomoriah
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Re: Preparing for my first session as GM

Post by Solomoriah »

Regarding potion creation costs:

Making one dose of a Potion of Clairvoyance, a potion that reproduces a 3rd level Magic-User spell, requires one week plus one day per spell level, so 10 days. Cost is 50gp per spell level per day, so 150 gp per day times 10 days is 1,500 gp.

Making two doses adds one day to the time, so 1,650 gp to make two doses. Thus, the cost per dose is (1,650 / 2) = 825 gp now. Making three doses costs 1,800 gp total, or 600 gp each. Of course, each extra dose drops the odds by 5% so you have to balance the cost analysis with that in mind.

Making multiple doses does in fact involve a discount.
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Boggo
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Re: Preparing for my first session as GM

Post by Boggo »

Solomoriah wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:45 pm Regarding potion creation costs:

Making one dose of a Potion of Clairvoyance, a potion that reproduces a 3rd level Magic-User spell, requires one week plus one day per spell level, so 10 days. Cost is 50gp per spell level per day, so 150 gp per day times 10 days is 1,500 gp.

Making two doses adds one day to the time, so 1,650 gp to make two doses. Thus, the cost per dose is (1,650 / 2) = 825 gp now. Making three doses costs 1,800 gp total, or 600 gp each. Of course, each extra dose drops the odds by 5% so you have to balance the cost analysis with that in mind.

Making multiple doses does in fact involve a discount.
so you don't pay for the additional doses, ok that's definitely a huge discount, may want to specify that I sure wouldn't have made that assumption
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Solomoriah
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Re: Preparing for my first session as GM

Post by Solomoriah »

Going further...

A Potion of Healing can be made by a 7th level or higher Cleric, per the magic-item rules. Assuming a Wisdom of 10 (average), the odds of success for a 7th level Cleric is 50% (15 + 5 x level + 10 Wisdom, -10% for the spell level). These aren't great odds, to be fair, but the assumption is that characters of the 7th level are just beginners at potion-making. A better level to work with is 12th, where the base chance is 75% + Wisdom - Spell Level; again assuming 10 Wisdom, this is a 75% chance.

The cleric can create a single potion at the given 75% chance for the base price of (8 days x 50gp) = 400 gp. Bumping the number of doses to 4 drops the chance to 60%, still respectable, and the cost rises to (11 days x 50 gp) = 550 gp, or 137.5 gp per dose.

Assume the potionmaker plans for failure. They know that 40% of their attempts will fail (from experience, even if they don't know the actual odds). It's best to assume the cost is simply double (ensuring some profit on the average) and then mark up the potion further if needed to cover living expenses (maybe 10 gp per day in most cases) and to provide extra profit as needed or allowed by their beliefs. Doubling the dose-cost to 275 gp and then adding 110 gp for the per diem costs gives a working minimum prices of 385 gp per dose.

Calling it a round 400 gp per dose would be reasonable, again assuming the cleric's beliefs allowed for that level of profit.
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