Traps

[Joe the Rat]

Son of Grimtooth, eh?

[Steveman]

Why should a trap like the swinging stone/blades, not have an attack roll and allow a save? Or one that are effectively poisoned weapon attacks?

Not trying to be confrontational, I just want to know the rationale.

[Dimirag]

An "attack type" trap could use a Saving Throw if needed, except for reducing to half damage.
Poison arrows/needles use a combination: An attack roll to see if hits the target, and a saving throw if hits to see if the poison affects the character.
So you can have:
1-Miss.
2-Damage.
3-Damage + Poison.

OTOH a pendulums, spiked floors/walls uses only a Save for Half Damage. This type of save is basically an alternate "to hit".

I have a free rpg which includes lots and lots of traps (i believe it gives rules for creating them) I'll see if i can translate some of them for BF

[SmootRK]

Saves generally mean one avoids a trap. Such as a Pit or Spray of Acid, or explosion (for half damage).

I can, however, see the need for two fold traps... perhaps one has a spray of darts (rolls to hit using the AB), but in addition the darts are poisoned so saves versus Poison are then needed as well.

But overall, I agree, one roll is best if possible, followed by damage or effect.


Oooops ... Dimirag beat me to the punch/.

[Dimirag]

Traps could fall into 3 Categories:
1-Attack Type: Projectiles comes first to my mind. Or any trap that functions like a melee attack.
2-Saving Throw Type: Fireballs, explosions, big size objects like boulders/balls, etc. They require avoiding reflexes, physical/mental resistance, etc.
3-Mix: Attack Type With Saving Throw: As the example of the poisoned darts/arrows.
3-Mix: Saving Throw With Attack Type: Something like a spiked net: If you make the ST you avoid the net, otherwise it entangles you and "makes" an attack roll to see if the spikes damages you (this depends on your armor). You can simplify this by a standard ST but doing this way allows for greater effect variability.

[Steveman]

I used both an attack and a save for instances where it is a two-fold attack. The swinging block/blade and portcullis traps were an exception, because I had it make a single attack roll against multiple possible targets. So I felt a save for half gave each player more control over their fate.

I don't play-by-post, so I can't say how that additional roll effects that sort of play - but it's never been a bog-down issue in irl and irc play with my group.

[Solomoriah]

Why should a trap like the swinging stone/blades, not have an attack roll and allow a save?

It's not written down anywhere, but the basic rule is: If it has one effect, it should be determined with one roll. This is used throughout the core rules.

Or one that are effectively poisoned weapon attacks?

This is not an exception... it has two effects. First, damage is rolled for the missile weapon if it hits; second, a saving throw is allowed against the poison.

Let me turn it around for you... why allow two rolls? The effect is to favor the players, reducing the chance the character will be harmed. If you have a swinging blades trap, where a random number of blades might hit, it would be far easier on you to simply allow a saving throw to avoid however many dice of damage you think the trap should cause. Alternately, if it's a trap involving a single weapon, for instance, a crossbow trap, a single roll to hit is all you need.

If a monster rolls a hit against a character, should the character be allowed a saving throw to avoid the attack? Generally, no. If it works for a monster, why should it be different for a trap?

[Steveman]

I would allow two rolls, because I feel when its not a normal weapon attack, having the players interact with the trap on a dice-level engages the player better.
And in the specific case of the swinging blocks and the falling metal grate, the single attack roll for all targets represents if the object even comes close, and the save is to see how well the can avoid injury.

Speaking of monsters in this scenario, then why do some monsters have multiple physical attacks? Why does this deviate from the one-effect, one-roll doctrine, and not just have one attack of a higher damage dice that encompass all of the physical attacks in one?

[Joe the Rat]

The only reason to have an attack roll is if the the trap can be defended against like an attack - namely, will armor make a difference, and would a character without armor be that much disadvantaged, that they couldn't get clear of the fixed path of the attack.

My inclination is to put the dice in the players hands as much as possible. AC vs. active assaults, saves vs. passive assaults.

[SmootRK]

My inclination is to put the dice in the players hands as much as possible. AC vs. active assaults, saves vs. passive assaults.

That is a great way to look at things