Necromancer Supplement

[daryen]

In light of the discussion in the Druid thread, I would like to do the following to the Necromancer Supplement:
1) Remove the Zero Level spells. These will be moved to the Zero Level Spell Supplement.
2) Remove the Seventh Level spells. These will be moved to the New Spells Supplement.
3) Slightly adjust the spells to make sure the Necromancer isn't any better than the base Magic User.

For the third point, what I'd like to do is remove the Chill spell to keep the first level spells capped at 12. Chill would then move to the New Spells Supplement. Then, I'd like to add two spells to each the Fifth and Sixth level spells. They'd either be normal Magic User spells, or they'd be something specific to Necromancers. I plan to review my historical spell lists (like I did for the Druids) to see if there is something thematic that fits, or just pick something that already exists. The main thing is to make sure they aren't kept skimpy with their higher level spells.

I also noticed a couple formatting things. I would like to get rid of the (n) in the spell lists and just bold the spell names like the other class supplements. I also recommend modifying the names of the "almost the same, but not quite" spells. They already have a full spell listing here; let's just make them a different spell.

Does all that sound reasonable?

[daryen]

Looking at the "slightly modified" spells, I see there are only really two: Animate Dead and Word of Recall. My main problem with this is that the Necromancer is the only class that seems to have a unique version of the spell. I think that either it should get a new name, and thus just be a different spell, or it should be deleted in favor of the more common version.

Let's look at them in reverse:
- For Word Of Recall, the only difference is that the Necro is limited to what the recall location can be as it has to be "death themed". While kinda cool, really, isn't the vast majority of Necromancers going to do this anyway? Couldn't we just let them use the normal Word of Recall and call it a day? A nice side effect of making it just the same spell is that it becomes another spell wizard types can share.
- For Animate Dead, the difference is that the Necro gets more dice from a single casting and can control more overall. My recommendation here is to also just make one version of Animate Dead. Necros get it at a lower spell level than a base Magic-User, which means they already get an advantage. Plus, giving them 50% more undead minions is potentially unbalancing, as this is a real special ability they get over Magic-Users, in addition to their wider weapon selection. I really don't think giving them the same limits as everyone else will harm them, and potentially takes away an advantage they might not warrant. If it does need the advantages, then can we give it a new name like "Improved Animate Dead" or some such?

Thanks!

[SmootRK]

I am certainly flexible to the spell changes you mention.

That said, I can say that (in actual play) Necromancers seem to come up a bit short of power compared to equivalent level Magic User. They use spells differently, combat for them is basically through their undead minions primarily, and they lack some of the hard hitting spells that regular Magic Users have. Because of these areas where they lag against MU, one must play Necromancer differently than a standard MU. I would be a little concerned if there was too much nerfing of the class. Changes Yes... but make sure they have their shtick to excel with. They should be decidedly superior to normal Magic-Users within their particular niche.

[daryen]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I have no intention of nerfing them in any way. I am mostly just worried about have two different spells with the same name. Just renaming Animate Undead makes my concern go away. Alternatively, we could just leave Animate Undead as it is, but make a separately total limit as part of the class definition. So, Animate Undead still can only animate so much on any given spell, but the class itself modifies what the maximum total HD can be controlled. Would that be OK?

Also, looking over the 3.5SRD spell list I see some really nice spells I would love to include. For example, I haven't looked too deeply into what the sixth level spell Eyebite does, but, really, who cares? We need to include that spell just based on the spell name alone! One important addition (to go with making Animate Undead be unchanged from the Base Rules version, but giving the class as a whole a higher limit) is Command Undead.

What I would like to see is to regularize the number of spells to 12 spells for the first two levels and 8 spells for third through sixth level. That means removing one first level spell (and moving it to New Spells or Libram Magica), but adding two second, fifth, and sixth level spells.

Heck, I have the lists here, these are my thoughts on modifying the spells:
- Make Animate Dead and Word of Recall just the base versions. (Like I mentioned, the total number of undead HD able to command will be increased in the class description.)
- Delete Stoneskin. Historically, Stoneskin is much more powerful than this version. Really, this is more like Barkskin, not Stoneskin. I think the spell should be removed from here, beefed up, and added to the New Spells Supplement.
- Add the second level spells Command Undead and False Life. Command Undead is a massive hole in the Necromancer's spell list and should be filled. False Life gives them some cheap hit points to help out at lower levels. EDIT: I changed my mind. Instead of False Life, they should get the Cleric spell Speak with Dead. I can't imagine why a Necromancer wouldn't be able to speak with the dead.
- Add the fifth level spells Blight and Symbol of Pain. Two nice additions to give them more options.
- Add the sixth level spells Eyebite and Undead to Death. The first is just a great name (it basically makes an opponent perform worse), and the second lets them clean up when needed. (I would have wanted Create Undead, but your Undeath spell fills the same role, but in a different way. Having both would be redundant.)

How does all of that sound?

[Dimirag]

You can add a special ability that improves the effect of some or all necro spell, so when comparte to a MU both can access the same spells, but the limited, specialized one (the necro) will get better results while using them, similar to how Bards tend to have improved effects on magical instruments.

[Seven]

I don't see a problem with the Necromancer version of Animate Dead being a bit different. However that brings compatibility into question. Is it the same spell?
Can a Magic User use the Necromancer version from a scroll? I wouldn't allow that.
To me, it's no different that the Druid version of Dispel Magic. Only the Druid can use that; however my Druids don't write. So there are no Druid scrolls in my campaign.

In effect, it's hard for a caster to remain in a fight past the 3rd round.
So, for an Evil Necromancer Boss, I just need 3 combat spells.
I expect those to get better with each level.

[Solomoriah]

I'm agreeable to cleaning up the inconsistencies in this class. I have to ask, though, why specifically Chill?

And I don't like having different versions of a spell with the same name. I never liked that in 1E with Continual Light, and we don't have it different here. I'm fine with making Word of Recall the same as the standard Cleric version in this case; the rationale seems sound.

[SmootRK]

Name Revision Suggestions:
Necromantic Re-Animation
Necromantic Animate Dead
Re-Animation

[daryen]

I have to ask, though, why specifically Chill?

I have changed the request from Chill to Stoneskin. The reason for Stoneskin is because it really isn't "Stoneskin", as it Stoneskin should be much more impressive. So, what I'd like to do is:
1) Add a more proper version of Stoneskin to New Spells or Libram Magica.
2) Create a whole new Necromancer spell called "Boneskin" that works just like Stoneskin here.

The reason I initially went for Chill is because it seems like the one that could be removed the easiest. Honestly, which spell to demote is negotiable, as I am just trying to get to 12. And it wouldn't truly disappear, just be moved to New Spells.

And I don't like having different versions of a spell with the same name.

I will change Create Undead to Re-Animate as offered by Smoot. I like that one.

EDIT: Whoops! I mean Re-Animation. Sorry for the typo. I will use Smoot's name.

[Seven]

And I don't like having different versions of a spell with the same name. I never liked that in 1E with Continual Light, and we don't have it different here. I'm fine with making Word of Recall the same as the standard Cleric version in this case; the rationale seems sound.

What was the difference? I don't remember that at all.