v3.0 suggestions

[Solomoriah]

Bonus spells, that is, more spells per day, is not on the table. Josha talks about making prime requisites valuable, and I'm for that... but I don't want bonus spells in the core rules. Like weapon specialization, they are a supplement item.

So what I was saying is, I'd be interested in seeing other ways to make primes valuable for classes other than Fighters. I'd even consider adding a Dex bonus for some Thief abilities... that wouldn't be a hassle to adjust for an existing character. Making the character a bit better at doing what he or she already does is cool... adding materially to the power level of a class isn't.

[Hywaywolf]

Well, I always say Clerics should add wisdom bonus when turning undead.

[Sir Bedivere]

Bonus spells, that is, more spells per day, is not on the table. ...

... I'd even consider adding a Dex bonus for some Thief abilities... that wouldn't be a hassle to adjust for an existing character. Making the character a bit better at doing what he or she already does is cool... adding materially to the power level of a class isn't.

That's a fairly fine line. I'll give this some thought, but right off hand, one thing would be to use the INT / WIS bonus as a negative modifier to the target's saving throw. Another might be to use it as a bonus to certain spell effects, like bonus damage for Magic Missile, Fireball,etc., and bonus healing for the Cure X Wounds series. Extra range or number of targets affected would also work. Hyway's suggestion to give a bonus for turning undead would seem to fit as well.

I'm not sure I actually like these suggestions. I need to think about this some more, but these are the kinds of things that would seem to fit your criteria.

[SmootRK]

There have been times when I utilized WIS as bonus on Healing spells (and I gave this once per spell level, so Orison was no bonus, 1st level spell gives WIS bonus once, and 2nd level spell gives 2x stat bonus, etc). I am not currently doing such, but when I did, nothing broke in the game; who could not use a few extra points of healing?

I plan to use WIS bonus for Turning. For MU, the same thing shared above could be utilized, perhaps as a Damage bonus per spell level... it would be akin to the relationship a Fighter has with STR:Damage bonus... an extra +6 points of damage for a Fire Ball cast by a INT 16 MU would not be a game breaker for me. For Thief abilities, +1=5% would serve well, but each ability needs association with different Ability Scores.

[Sir Bedivere]

Yeah, those kinds of things make sense. Of course, w/ DEX you already have the missile weapon bonus.

The spell level x stat bonus seems kind of powerful at first, but I guess +6 or +9 HP in a mid-level dungeon isn't so much. Then again, the fireball is an area attack, so that could be pretty significant if you're being swarmed by orcs or some other low-HD monster.

Alternately, you could let the MU / Cleric choose to increase the range or area of affect by X% per bonus point or something like that.

[Joe the Rat]

...or duration (no, not on the fireball). To keep the bookkeeping simple, I'd suggest letting them use their bonus (if and how much... and in what direction?) as they cast - using their fast thinking or clearer understanding to let them tweak the spell based on the situation, but only on one parameter (no +5% here, -3% there, and +0.2 damage/level nonsense).

On Thief adjustments: having adjustments based on other abilities would help diffuse the One Stat To Rule Them All tendency. Being knowledgeable of mechanics, or a sharp eye for detail would certainly be a boon to the designated disabler of defensive devises. However, this would be the only class with special ability modifiers tied to non-requisite abilities. The success of a Magic User's spell is not affected by how nimble or clumsy they are, and a boorish cleric is no less holy than a charismatic one (but it might explain why they were sent out from their temple).

Also note:

Dexterity: This ability measures the character's quickness
and balance as well as aptitude with tools.

As described, we have a justification for a Dex-based disabling bonus - high dexterity implies being good with your hands. Nimble fingers better feel the catches and make the delicate adjustments to safely access the ill-gotten gains. Note that this does not suggest a bonus for finding said devices, or listening for noise.

I'd suggest alternate attributes for thief skills as an option - either at creation (the thief is not terribly agile, but has the keen eye and understanding of an expert locksmith), or by situation (should I cut the red wire or the black wire to relax the spring and disarm the trap?). Mind you, I'd also suggest letting a cleric opt for a Charisma bonus to Turn Undead instead of Wisdom (Faith expressed with force of personality rather than radiance of harmony).

[Solomoriah]

I'd be agreeable to moving the Dex bonus for Thief abilities from Thief Options to the Core Rules; however, if I do that, I want similar bonuses to apply to Clerics and Magic-Users.

I don't like the idea of multiplying the bonus times level. What about a 10th level character with an 18 Prime? +30??? Say that's a Fireball... you've gone from 10d6 (average 35) to 10d6+30 (average 65). Whereas, a Fighter using his 18 Strength bonus (+3) has the same 1d8+3 with his sword as he had at first level. No, I'm not a big believer in enforcing game balance, but there do need to be limits.

[SmootRK]

One thing that should be done for ability scores is to be clear about each class's role. Fighters role is to fight, ergo, Str is paramount for dealing damage.

As I see it, Clerics role (in these roleplaying games) is to provide support, defence, and heal (at least in game I participate in the primary function seems to be healing first, then the others). Therefore, I believe a WIS bonus for Healing is called for. Turning bonus is fine, but it does not come up often like a Fighter's association with STR for damage.

Thieves role is to use a variety of skills to defeat traps, locks, and otherwise defeat obstacles with a focus on avoidance of combat (or by minimal combat from surprise attacks meant to defeat an opponent quickly without the chance of a retribution (backstab). So, I would pin ability to those tasks (as already suggested). Unlike the other classes, the Thief has skills that might focus on other ability scores, but most are associated with DEX. +1=5%

MU are a jack of all trades (like thieves) by use of their spells. They do not have combat prowess, nor a focus on individual non-magical skills, nor a role that is more clearly defined like Clerics. To me, it seems that because they are high INT, they ought to have some sort of bonus that supports the idea that "They Know More". To me that screams, extra spells (bonus spells) due to having more 'memory'... but Solo clearly does not think that would be appropriate as 'core', so we must think of something else. Given their 'role' as flexible jack of all trades, the idea that they can either apply their intellect in different ways. Perhaps they can either apply a damage bonus, save reduction against opponents, or extend duration (+1 = increment increase, for instance if spell effect is in rounds then it is an additional number of rounds, if duration is hours then it increases the hours of duration, etc). Because they are flexible, the bonus can be chosen at the time of casting, or based upon what is appropriate (ie fireball would not benefit from increase in duration, but it might be ideal to reduce saves for a large group, or to increase the damage by a few points).

Just ideas to throw about.

Edit: solo just posted. I did not mean per character level, but by spell level... but I agree it could still add up. Fireball by a 18 (+3) = +9 damage. The damage already scales by level, so it might be too much.

[Joe the Rat]

[Edit: damn I'm slow]
Spell level is a bit less amok than caster level, but still needs a watchful eye. So we get +3 - +9 for good old Fireball, but +7 - +21 for an optional 7th level version of said spell. It also means Magic Missile does 1d6+1 to 1d6+4 regardless of caster level... per missile.

I like the idea of matching modifiers - if clerics can add to healing, magic users get to add to hurting - but that may not be the most balanced solution. Moving it to a Saving Throw penalty (or having that as the 'damage' option) would reflect spell potency as well, without raising the damage cap. Another possibility is a reroll or bump-up for low damage rolls. Example: A MU with a 13INT gets to reroll all 1s (or raise them to 2), while one with 18INT gets to reroll all 1s, 2s, & 3s (or raise them to 4) Keeps the cap, but shifts the curve up. I actually don't like this one as much, but it seemed like a reasonable approach to consider.

[artikid]

I'm on the fence on this.
As I said before (in this same thread I think) I'd like for 3.0 to be just a bug-fix release.
On the other hand I'd like to see an Advanced version of BFRPG that takes material from the Supplements without diverging too much from the original game.
Personally I feel that anything coming from later editions (3, 3.5 or 4) should be left out.
This is not because I hate them, it's because innovations (even the good ones) from the later editions make the game feel different from the B/X simulacrum that Solomoriah intended BFRPG to be.
My 2cp