House Rules, Ideas and the Like

[Sir Bedivere]

Its the cost one pays to build a PC that will become much stronger and destructive than the other PCs.

That may be the case. Still, a class that's way too weak at low levels doesn't seem balanced by making them too powerful at high levels. That just means the Magic-User will always be a problem in a campaign. In my opinion, it's just bad design. (I'll be expecting the lightning bolt for profaning the sensibilities of The Gygax any moment now ...)

(Looking skyward.)

(No? Maybe The Gygax is feeling merciful today ...)

Anyway, that's how the class was created, and for Old Schoolers, that's reason enough not to change it, I guess.

[SmootRK]

My preference overall (personally) is for the studious sort of MU. But I understand that others like alternate takes on the idea... so I work with it.

The whole idea of innate casting is cool (based upon other ability scores such as CHA), but with the complete access to the MU spell list and otherwise treating them just like the studious wizards (with alternate casting mechanic) does not go well for me. That is why I made an effort to create an altogether different sort of caster (Fey-Mage). This other sort of magic user suits my idea of elvish casting as well (with CHA being more of a defining feature of elves than INT).

Anyhow, both opinions on casters are equally valid. I would also like to see such an altogether different casting mechanic fully outlined for BFRPG. Such new ideas often form the catalyst for more of my own materials.

[Solomoriah]

It's your campaign, and you are welcome to do as you wish. I just want to call out these two statements of yours, which I think are the crux of your argument, and make a couple of points about them.

What I mean is, every other class can take care of themselves, whereas the first level Magic-User needs babysitting, which always struck me as terribly wrong.

This is consistent with classic fantasy literature. The fledgling magic-user is always shown as weak, even ineffective, needing protection by the other members of the party, while experienced wizards are true powers in their own right... but even then, if you can sneak up on a wizard or otherwise surprise him, he may be a pushover.

That may be the case. Still, a class that's way too weak at low levels doesn't seem balanced by making them too powerful at high levels.

"Game Balance" is the gawd of modern gaming, to be worshiped and kowtowed to. The idea that every class should be equally good at every level (or at equal XP) is the stated goal. BFRPG is a firm member of the Old School, where it is understood that different paths in life (i.e. classes) yield benefits at different rates.

Now, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your way of doing things... it's your game, and it's not my business to pass judgment on it. The only thing that really matters is, are your players enjoying it?

[Hywaywolf]

I don't want to be mistaken as telling other people how they should play any PC. I am just stating how I see it. Like Solomoriah said if you and your players are enjoying it then have at it.

With that said, the beauty of old school with unbalanced characters is that you have a greater opportunity for your campaign to actually tell a story when the PCs have limitations that they have to work with. I played a thief with 3 hit points who never once swung a weapon in melee for the entire first level. I actively tried to create scenarios that kept him from the front line while simultaneously trying not to come across as cowardly. I didn't simply metagame it by simply stating that on paper he is better at ranging so he will range while you guys go in and take the hits. I would have my PC pretend that a strap broke on his pack, that my boot sole came loose, I had to take a whizz, etc when we were likely to get into melee thus letting the others pass me by. I mean why else would the thief who was supposed to be in front looking for traps end up in the back of the pack. I loved that PC. I tried so hard to keep him alive that he grew to be my favorite PC.

And a MU doesn't have to just sit in the back and watch the action just because he is out of spells. Just because they aren't proficient with weapons doesn't mean they can't swing a torch at something or throw a dagger, they just have a worse chance of hitting something. I don't play MUs, because I like thieves better, but I am sure their are many more things they can do to be productive rather than just throw magic around. With their high intelligence they should be able to discover more about a situation than a fighter who just plows in.

[Sir Bedivere]

It's your campaign, and you are welcome to do as you wish. I just want to call out these two statements of yours, which I think are the crux of your argument, and make a couple of points about them.

Yeah, we're just talking about what we like, not what's right or wrong or even what's best. I certainly don't expect anyone to change what they do based on the kind of game I like to run.

What I mean is, every other class can take care of themselves, whereas the first level Magic-User needs babysitting, which always struck me as terribly wrong.

This is consistent with classic fantasy literature. The fledgling magic-user is always shown as weak, even ineffective, needing protection by the other members of the party, while experienced wizards are true powers in their own right... but even then, if you can sneak up on a wizard or otherwise surprise him, he may be a pushover.

Sure, that is one kind of story, but it's not the only kind and, in my reading, it's far from the most common. The most common wizard concepts out there are Merlin and Gandalf, hardly weaklings who need to be protected. (More examples: all the other magic-users in the Arthurian legends and Tolkien, Robert Howard's sorcerers, Zelazny's Merlin & other magic-users, Glen Cook's Black Company wizards.) When we do see fledgling magic-users, often the problem is too much power and not enough control or maturity (e.g., Spellsinger, The Sorcerer's Apprentice), not too little magic with perfect control. We also don't often see the same weaknesses in literary wizards that the Old School imposes on Magic-Users. A number of the above wizards have used swords or bows at some point or another; because of their connection to the supernatural they are often much harder to kill than normal people; and I can't remember any of them being tied to a spell book.

That may be the case. Still, a class that's way too weak at low levels doesn't seem balanced by making them too powerful at high levels.

"Game Balance" is the gawd of modern gaming, to be worshiped and kowtowed to. The idea that every class should be equally good at every level (or at equal XP) is the stated goal. BFRPG is a firm member of the Old School, where it is understood that different paths in life (i.e. classes) yield benefits at different rates.

Yeah, bad choice of words, though I've been out of gaming for 20 years (started back about this time last year) and it didn't have that meaning when I left the RPG world. My point is, if I say the low-level magic-user is too weak, then telling me at high levels the magic-user is too strong doesn't make for a good counter-argument. It's like if I said the stew was too bland and you told me, don't worry, it's got a bad aftertaste. The only thing I get out of that exchange is that it's bad stew.

I've got no problem with the Old School philosophy, and if it weren't for the Magic-User (and risk of rolling a 1 for HP at first level) I would be happy to play straight by the book.

[Hywaywolf]

I wonder what kind of wizard Gandolf was when he first left the academy. Gandolf and Merlin are the wizards your PC becomes after many campaigns. They aren't the wizards you start out with.

[Sir Bedivere]

I don't want to be mistaken as telling other people how they should play any PC.

I'm not taking it that way, and I hope I'm not coming across as telling anyone else how they should play the MU.

With that said, the beauty of old school with unbalanced characters is that you have a greater opportunity for your campaign to actually tell a story when the PCs have limitations that they have to work with.

Sure, you're right. But that's good campaign design and storytelling. It has nothing to do with the rules as far as I'm concerned. I like to start with every PC having a backstory that includes things like enemies a lot more powerful than they are, family or apprenticeship quarrels they've run away from, maybe a bounty on their heads in certain places, etc., etc. I don't need or want the rules to force me into telling a good story or role-playing an interesting character.

And a MU doesn't have to just sit in the back and watch the action just because he is out of spells. Just because they aren't proficient with weapons doesn't mean they can't swing a torch at something or throw a dagger ...

I think this is closer to the crux of my point. Sure, a magic-user CAN do those things. So can I, or a secretary, or a third-grader. I don't want to play myself, a secretary, or a third-grader in a fantasy adventure game. I want to play a wizard who first and foremost uses magic to solve problems. Using magic is the whole point of the class; THAT is what's fun about it. Why is the magic-user's fun limited to one moment per game day, while the fighter and thief can have fun the whole game session long?

The good thing is that we can all pretty much have the magic-user we like. So I'm unhappy with the Old School MU and I house rule it until I'm happy. So what? I'm not attacking the rules or Old School RPGs. BFRPG is a great game just as it is. I'm very happy I found it, that Solomoriah keeps it going, and that it's attracted a lot of cool people I can have discussions like this one with.

[Sir Bedivere]

I don't need or want the rules to force me into telling a good story or role-playing an interesting character.

Hywaywolf, from your description of your thief character, it sounds like you're a great role-player, and I think you would be in any game system. I'm really enjoying your character in the Redbluff campaign.

I'd also like to point out that I'm playing a magic-user in that campaign, so I'm not all THAT opposed to Old School magicians.

[Hywaywolf]

You better run into the kitchen then if you want your stew and then a good sleep.

[SmootRK]

I have done a little work on my own house-rule document. I think I will be up to sharing it with the world soon, but it is still a very much unfinished product at this time (at least for now it mostly references other documents rather than detailing everything out). A lot of stuff has not been inserted yet either (such as combat kudos for fighter classes) but I think much of what I want to modify from the Core Rules shows. Feel free to comment on my choices.

Smoot House Rules Document.pdf

PDF

Smoot House Rules Document.odt

OPEN OFFICE

Various edits to the above document have already been done... after more substantial changes have been made, I will upload new versions.