Thug (Thief subclass)

[SmootRK]

Over at Dragonsfoot this idea presented itself, so I thought I would share it here as well.

Thugs are a tougher sort of take on the thief class. While they have abilities common to standard thieves, individuals who take up the Thug class are those who more often approach larcenous activities through force, intimidation, and violence.

XP as standard Thief
HD = d6
Fights on Thief/Cleric column with a +1 Bonus at levels 1-5, +2 at 6-10, etc.
Leather Armor plus Shield allowed, or use Thief Supplement armor adjustments
Normal Backstab ability
Thug must eliminate two thief abilities from their repertoire; their choice, but choice is permanent. If optional rules for free-form point allotment is utilized, then the amount of points allowed per level must be reduced accordingly (although I have not figured this out).

If Weapon Specialization rules are used (from Combat Options Supplement), then Thug may choose 1 (and only one) weapon, gaining first rank of specialization at level 6. At 10th level they get their second rank of specialization, 15th level gets 3rd rank, etc. and otherwise follows the rules listed in that supplement. This is sub-par compared to what a standard fighter would get, but clearly an advantage over a standard thief.

[SmootRK]

Has anyone tried this out in play? Are there any tweaks that might need to be considered?

I could imagine these Thugs as alternatives to normal thieves for races such as Dwarves, Half-Orcs, and other tough guy races. Perhaps even races such as Half-Ogres, which do not have access to Thief class, would instead have access to this class.

Another sort of Thief Subclass that ought to be developed is an outdoorsy type that could fill the archetype of Scouts or Bandits... a sort of cross of Ranger ideas with Thief. Robin Hood's band could be filled with rogues of this sort (as well as standard Rangers, standard Thieves, standard Fighters, etc.) Thoughts on what abilities would be distinct to this sort of Bandit/Scout?

[crazycrypt]

I like the idea of a Thug character, although I am not sure if there is enough of a difference between it and a common thief.

As for a Scout class, I love the idea. Maybe give this character a bonus to move silently and hide in shadows. Also could give him tracking, direction sense and disguise type skills to utilize. Not sure what type of disadvantage would work though. Just ideas.

[Solomoriah]

I'm not convinced the Thug serves any useful purpose.

You have to draw a line between things that really call for a character class, and things that just need a few options added to a standard class. I'm thinking an ala carte Thief class with several thiefly skills added, where you get the skills only if you devote points to them. You'd start the game not with the standard numbers, but with a pool to spend from, and whatever skills you put points into at 1st level would define your character thereafter (I don't know if I'd allow adding skills after 1st level, in other words).

[crazycrypt]

I like that idea, especially if you add more skills to choose from. It would give you an option on how you want to run your thief, kind of in the same manner that you would have when picking your cleric and magic user by selecting the type to use giving you different spells.

And I agree, no adding skills after your original selection so that way you cannot change your thief mid-game just to get an advantage over something giving you trouble. Makes one really think about what skills would make them the best character for you when you are making the character.

[SmootRK]

Thug was a stream of thought solution to what someone was looking for... a Fighter/Thief sort of character. The idea that a Thief could be more modular is a very nice idea, especially if options exist for beefing up HD, combat ability, and such. A while back I was working on something like that - an Expert sort of variant where one could pick and choose abilities. I need to see if I have that material handy somewhere and I will share what I came up with.

The Thug serves a purpose for those who would trade the versatility of the normal thief for a few toughening options... but I agree, it is really just a set of tweaks on the normal thief, than a true class idea. I would love to see some more ideas for an outdoorsy roguish type (scout, bandit, etc).

[Solomoriah]

I don't see the need, myself. Thieves, given their fast advancement, compete quite well in combat for the first several levels, and I don't see Thugs as a "high level" option.

There is, statistically, no advantage to a Fighter/Thief in BFRPG. We've known that for a while, actually.

The problem with the Thug is, it's hard to make the Thief a better fighter without making him a better Fighter. And that would be wrong.

[SmootRK]

Normal Thief progression was an issue in our discussion over at dragonsfoot... over there we had agreed that Clerical XP progression was a better choice for Thugs. The text here does not reflect that change. That change should keep the Thug from being a better fighter that an actual Fighter (over time).

In my mind, the Thug could provide a sort of roguish option for those races where the normal thief seems odd. For instance, I can readily imagine 1/2Orcs or 1/2Ogres (among other humanoids the GM might utilize) being into the shady side of things... but standard thief does not really provide the right vibe for these tough-guy sorts. Nor does a standard fighter; as I can envision such characters having at least a couple of roguish abilities to amend their fighting style. In a dwarvish culture, perhaps the tough tunnel fighter needs a bit of stealth, climbing, and trap sense. Maybe the halfling sheriff fights well, but employs some detective tools (open locks, traps, read languages).

I think the Ranger is a decent attempt at a middle point between fighter and thief, but it starts with Fighter and tweaks from there. The Thug was an attempt to start with Thief and move in the other direction with tweaks... and with really simplistic modifications (in the BFRPG mode).

Anyhow, just an idea.

[Solomoriah]

I see your point, Mr. Smoot. Here's the issue for me: We're wandering into "class creep" territory, and honestly, the only solution to "class creep" is "ala carte" characters built from ability categories. I've written such a system, but it doesn't feel right even though it works pretty well. It will never see the light of day... I don't want to deal with it.

Still. I don't like the Sorceror either, but I published that anyway. So with the Thug... if you send me a finished version, I'll post it.

[SmootRK]

I can understand your thoughts of class creep. Having many classes (or variants) does not bother me (nor races). It can always be ala-carte anyhow. GMs have always chosen what they allow or don't, based upon personal preference or campaign feel. For instance, a elf-centric woodland campaign might not mix well with Oriental Adventures Samurai running around... but if the campaign progressed, and the characters migrated to regions where such fare is more common, then why not. Similarly, I don't like Gnomes... wont use them, nor will I use a rainbow of elf species. I have used many classes from Dragon Magazine over the years, retired many, and always come back to roots periodically... but I have the mindset to 'cater to what the players want to play' rather than limiting them... within reason of course.

And... fyi - I hate the sorcerer as well. It could work, but IMO it needs a completely different spell set. Innate powers might be interesting for magic missiles or detect spells, but gets really wonky when doing stuff with drawn out magic circles or other scholarly sorts of spells. It needs to be done from scratch, rather than just as a different kind of spellcaster using MU spell lists. So, I am with you here! Not using that class... but if someone writes another version from scratch, I might reconsider.

As for the Thug as an official offering, I will see what I can do. I perhaps prefer it to be a set of options or tweaks to standard thieves; and might be addendum into the Thief Options supplement. A Scout set of tweaks might be included as well. Then again, perhaps a Thief Subclasses Supplement might appear, containing not only the Thug and Scout, but also the Bard you have in development.