New Blog Post: Are Magic-Users Too Weak, Part II

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Solomoriah
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New Blog Post: Are Magic-Users Too Weak, Part II

Post Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:18 am

... still answering the same old question.

https://basicfantasy.org/blog/?p=255
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Dimirag
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Re: New Blog Post: Are Magic-Users Too Weak, Part II

Post Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:46 pm

Nice post.

Seems like some people see combat as "using the class special ability with each action", and think that swinging a weapons is the fighter's special ability and not his durability...

Regarding the magic dart: I don't like that option, giving something that is unlimited feels too much, even if it needs an attack roll.

Finally, did you run your simulator increasing the MU's amount of magic missile simulating games where the class gets more spells slots at first level?
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Re: New Blog Post: Are Magic-Users Too Weak, Part II

Post Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:10 pm

I did not, actually, but it's not hard to do. The bonus spell rule I've used in the past is to add the character's INT bonus to 1st level spell slots for +1 and +2, and add 2 to level 1 and 1 to level 2 for +3, so in this simulation the magic-user would have 2 magic missiles. One moment...

Wow. Okay, so the monsters win 800 of 10,000 battles (i.e. 8% of the time) so the PCs are 92% likely to win. All of them walk away 56% of the time, having received an average of 2.3 points of damage. Two battles in a row would be about equal to the "no magic" option... hmm.

Okay, so now a second battle, with the fighter having soaked 2 points of damage and the magic-user having no spells left. PCs win 67% of the time, and all four survive 32% of the time. ... I'd still leave the dungeon at this point. The front row has taken another 2.3 points of damage, call it 4.6 at this point, and since it didn't kill them all that probably means both fighter and cleric are damaged.

It would look different if the magic-user saved a spell for the second fight, of course.
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Re: New Blog Post: Are Magic-Users Too Weak, Part II

Post Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:45 pm

Let's look at another common house rule. I let the PCs roll hit points twice and take the highest number; what if we give them all max HP at first level, as is commonly done? This run includes one magic missile for the magic-user, by the book.

The adventurers win 94% of the time, suffering an average of 3.4 points of damage (over all the wins). All four PCs survive 63% of the time when they win (not counting the 6% of the time that they lose). Fighting a second battle is looking a lot better.

... okay, let's take a look at that. Simulation reset to default, one spell for the magic-user, best of 2 rolls for hit points. For each combat, if they survive one fight, they get to face a fresh group of 4 goblins. Results: the PCs win 38% of the time; all four walk away just 9% of the time (over all runs, not just the wins). You have at least one casualty in 75% of the wins.

MORAL: If you want your 1st level characters to survive, don't put them in multiple fights without healing in between.
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Re: New Blog Post: Are Magic-Users Too Weak, Part II

Post Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:51 pm

This is getting addictive...

Two fights, as above, one spell for the magic-user, max hit points for all the adventurers.

Results: 57% of the time, the PCs win (much better than 38%), with all four walking away 17% of the time (still not great). You still lose one or more PCs in 70% of the wins.

Moral stands.
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Re: New Blog Post: Are Magic-Users Too Weak, Part II

Post Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:50 pm

so the PCs are 92% likely to win
Those are big chances. I think games with the "magic dart" option will get even higher chances, even more for games that lets MU cast magic missile several time (like using a mana point system)
This is getting addictive...
I can see why! haha :lol:
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Re: New Blog Post: Are Magic-Users Too Weak, Part II

Post Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:59 pm

Next I'm going to add support for missile weapons to the core script, allowing the "back row" to fire at the other "back row." First one battle, then two. But first, supper.
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Re: New Blog Post: Are Magic-Users Too Weak, Part II

Post Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:27 pm

Ack. Found a bug in the script that prevented ties from happening; ran some tests, and ties seem to be around 0.2% of all fights. So it's an error, but it's negligible.

Adding throwing daggers for the thief and magic-user increases the overall win rate from 83% to 88%. Nice, but not huge. This is one battle, with magic missile available for the magic-user, and best-of-two hit point rolling.
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Re: New Blog Post: Are Magic-Users Too Weak, Part II

Post Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:53 am

I’ve actually had people tell me that magic-users should never be reduced to using non-magical combat options, which is silly.
It is VERY silly.

On a semi-related note, using Monte Carlo analysis to evaluate game options is pretty rad.
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Re: New Blog Post: Are Magic-Users Too Weak, Part II

Post Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:35 am

I don't know the limitation or complications of your program Solo, so I may be asking too much...
Could we have the battle results of the 4 classes with full optional rules (OR) mode?

Fighter
-8HP (full hd OR)
-Weapon Specialization OR
-Cleave OR: Gets a second attack if the first one kills the opponent
-Fully Armored

MU
-4HP (full HD OR)
-Extra spells OR
-Magic Dart OR

Cleric
-6HP (full HD OR)
-Magical Healing (spells since first level/healing pool/lay on hands OR)
-Fully armored

Thief
-6HP (full HD OR and d6 HD OR)
-Dex bonus for melee weapon (light weapon OR)
-Can backstab each opponent once per combat ("I backstab the fighter's opponent" OR)

Other OR are welcome, I'm curious of how much power the full package brings on the group
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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