Scouts Supplement

Creating game materials? Monsters, spells, classes, adventures? This is the place!
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Dimirag
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:40 pm

Sorry if my last post wasn't very clear, sometimes its difficult to me explain thing on a non-native language...
I was worried of the +5 final bonus on sniper attack (due to the +1 for range and +4 for ability) but the backstab doesn't add to the +2 bonus for attacking an opponents back so both will end up with a +4 to the attack.
About the "thievish-ranger" originally the class was a woodland melee fighter, and then shifted into a melee woodland stealthy fighter, then it took on a more distance fighter approach, but most of them work basically the same on a melee/range balance. But I wasn't referring to the ranger as a melee fighter but to a stealth/camouflage one...

Other suggested changes:
-Making it a Thief subclass, so Rangers are the sub-fighters with similar skills.
-Ability requirements: Dex, Con and Wis 9
-Drop the extra attack.
-Use of Thieving Skills whit its own values:
--Detect Snares/Traps
--Hide/Camouflage
--Climb (trees mountains, etc)
--Move Silently.
--Listen.
--Add Tracking
--Replace the extra attacks with the Sniper Attack
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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SmootRK
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:46 am

Dimirag wrote:Sorry if my last post wasn't very clear, sometimes its difficult to me explain thing on a non-native language...
I was worried of the +5 final bonus on sniper attack (due to the +1 for range and +4 for ability) but the backstab doesn't add to the +2 bonus for attacking an opponents back so both will end up with a +4 to the attack.
About the "thievish-ranger" originally the class was a woodland melee fighter, and then shifted into a melee woodland stealthy fighter, then it took on a more distance fighter approach, but most of them work basically the same on a melee/range balance. But I wasn't referring to the ranger as a melee fighter but to a stealth/camouflage one...

Other suggested changes:
-Making it a Thief subclass, so Rangers are the sub-fighters with similar skills.
-Ability requirements: Dex, Con and Wis 9
-Drop the extra attack.
-Use of Thieving Skills whit its own values:
--Detect Snares/Traps
--Hide/Camouflage
--Climb (trees mountains, etc)
--Move Silently.
--Listen.
--Add Tracking
--Replace the extra attacks with the Sniper Attack
I think the +4 bonus for sneak/snipe replaces the standard +2 for rear attack, so in effect the abilities could be written (both thief surprise attack or the snipe mentioned) as +2 in addition to factors such as attacking the rear of the opponent (or any such factor such as being prone, dazed, denied dexterity bonus, etc.). You get my drift here. So yes, the short range bonus of +1 would apply, +2 for the snipe, + any for factors such as rear, shield-less, etc. I don't think it is so wonky to not work, it is just an extra +1 over other such thieves with their standard backstab. There is a good chance in many encounters that one could be denied the 'rear' portion of this bonus.
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crazycrypt
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:17 pm

I apologize for not being more involved in this thread. I have not been able to play or really spend much time thinking about the game in almost a year due to moving for a new job. Therefore I have not been able to test this character as I would have liked. I did not realize I never sent in an update with the XP table matching that of a cleric. There is no doubt that update needs to be made. With that said, I made this class based off a character in a book and would like to keep it as similar as I can.

Therefore I would prefer not to take out the bonus for using a shortbow/longbow and the dual ability with the small weapons. Most characters that are able, including thieves use the most dangerous weapon they are able to or is at their advantage to, i.e. longswords, etc. The dual wielding is not that advantageous as the character is limited to only using small weapons, i.e. shortswords, daggers, etc, and cannot use a shield of any kind. In the books I based this from, they used a rather special large, heave, sharp knife as their primary weapon, similar in size to a shortsword, and a throwing knife as an off-handed weapon to help them defend themselves. This character is not meant to be in malee combat unless absolutely necessary as they focus their training on utilizing ranged weapons, which is why I believe they should receive the +2 bonus for using a bow. For when they did have to be in malee combat they trained with the weapons they carried to help them survive, which had to be small enough not to get in the way.

As for the snipe attack, I do not have a problem with adding it in, but I think it is unnecessary as they currently already receive a +2 bonus for using a bow. I would prefer to keep the +2 then to change it to a snipe attack. However am open to ideas of adding something similar provided that the general +2 for using bows would not be taken out.

In the book, the character's were forced to rely on their abilities to move silently, hide, climb, listen, and track to stay alive as they were generally on their own or in the accompany of 1-2 others. I believe that most of these abilities should not be hindered by going into an area that is not wilderness, with the exception of maybe hide. It can be more difficult to hide in a dungeon or urban setting then it is to move silently, depending upon the surroundings. As for open locks and remove traps, my original version did not have either in it, and I'm thinking that they both should not be now. My original version also created a new item, a specialized cloak for only scouts that would give the scout a bonus to the hide ability, just as in the book. I would love to see a special cloak utilized, but thought it made the scout off balanced so I scrapped it.

I do enjoy all of the replies and would love to get this into a viable playable character. I cannot wait until I am able to try it out for myself. The books are by far my absolute favorite and I just love getting wrapped up in them.
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SmootRK
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:31 am

It is cool that the idea comes from a series of books. That allows those interested in the books to find a way to interact with the author's imagination as well. I have done so as well, trying to make something like the Confessor possible for my daughter to play along with.

But, just because something appears in a book, does not necessarily make it work well within the framework of an unrelated game's set of rules. The author is obviously not constrained by rules, so his characters will be able to do things that 'break' then normal sense of what is allowable within the framework of the game. Sometimes one must do a number of trade offs in order to better fit, allowing one to play a rough estimation for their game... not a page by page conversion. Just because somebody uses a bow in a book does not necessarily mean they get bonus with such... likewise, dual wielding mentioned does not necessarily mean characters are considered experts in such forms of combat.... it might just mean the character in the story used a bow (and just that). I have not read the book in question, so I don't really know the extent of what is implied by the author... just suggesting to take a step back and consider mundane use instead.

Another point was brought up in the Assassin Thread as well. Why would one want to play a Thief, if another class can do virtually everything they do... plus more. Even if one tweaks the XP a bit, the cost is small to pay for abilities. If this class was not available, and one wanted this range of powers, they would have to Combination Class or something, costing substantially more.

Also, using my version of a Confessor as an example... I had to make a large number of changes from the book inspiration. It just was not possible to give that sort of power to a character without severe limitations. It just wouldn't work. I would suggest loosening the idea that you have to "copy" the book in order to achieve something fun to play that is still within the spirit of the book. I promise, it will still be fun even if the class cannot do quite everything found within the pages of the books, or if certain qualities are changed slightly.

Many of the suggestions above over the last few pages of the thread have offered ways to tone down the class in certain ways in order to make it more playable alongside other characters. Nothing right or wrong, but I think the suggestions still fit within that spirit of what you are going for.
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crazycrypt
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:41 pm

I understand and do want to make this a viable playable character. However, I do want to keep it within the original vision I had, which is a ranger type thief. Meaning the main weapon to be used is the bow.

As for the dual wielding, I can understand how you see it doesn't fit, and could take it out. However, if it is taken out, shouldn't the weapon restrictions be adjusted? I limited the character to small weapons specifically for the dual wielding, otherwise I'm not sure why a human sized character would be limited to just small weapons. Maybe limit them to one handed weapons? Ideas?

As for the sneak attack, any ideas on how to make it work without eliminating the +2 bonus for using a bow? Maybe have the Snipe Attack give an additional +2 to attack bonus instead of +4 so that the total would still equal +4. Also, should it be limited to just short range, which would give it an additional +1, or should it be limited to medium or less, or be limited at all?

As for the the thief skills themselves, this is my take. I see no reason to limit move silently. It takes just as much attention to detail in order to move silently in the wilderness as it does in an urban area, you still focus on moving slowly and not stepping on anything. Listen to me would be the same way. Pick Pockets should not even be considered here. As for hide and climb walls, in my opinion they should not be hindered in any way. However, I guess I could see where they could be in urban areas. I'm not sure what is the best here. In my opinion I think find/remove traps should not be allowed. As for open locks, I understand what everyone is saying and am still on the fence about this. Maybe an overall penalty would be better then just not allowing it altogether? I still cannot decide what is best for open locks.

I am defiantly open to ideas on how to make this class work the best. Since I have not been able to test it in any way, I really don't know how effective it is or how over/under powered certain things are.
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crazycrypt
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:41 pm

I just now had time to read the assassin thread. Creating a table for skills for just the scout might not be a bad idea. Just have to figure out if it is the right idea and how to best go about it.

It also got me thinking about the climb ability. I'm thinking that it is not a necessary ability for the scout. As I have not been able to play this game in awhile, I forgot that anyone can climb, just not as well as a thief. While I think a scout would be very adept to climbing tress, I don't believe they would be very good at climbing just about anything else without the help of special climbing tools. Therefore I am thinking that the climb ability should be taken out and that the scout should just make sure and take a grappling hook and whatever else they might need in order to climb better. Maybe make (if there isn't already something similar) spikes that can be attached to their boots and gloves to help aide them in climbing.

As with Solo's Ranger, I believe the main skills for a scout would be to move silently and hide. In my view a scout wants to stay out of direct combat and wants to remain unseen and unheard. I also believe listen would be a good ability for a scout in order to make sure nothing is coming or to know which direction someone is coming from before moving and taking a chance of being seen. I also believe a tracking skill like Solo's ranger is also necessary.

This leaves the open locks ability that I still cannot make up my mind about. Maybe this is where having it's own table would come in. I do not think a scout should be as good as a thief at opening locks, however I do believe they should be better then a normal person at opening locks as it would be a handy skill in scouting out areas.

Just running off ideas here hoping to get feedback to make this a much more successful class, and one in which I hope to someday be allowed to play.
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Metroknight
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:19 am

crazycrypt wrote: This leaves the open locks ability that I still cannot make up my mind about. Maybe this is where having it's own table would come in. I do not think a scout should be as good as a thief at opening locks, however I do believe they should be better then a normal person at opening locks as it would be a handy skill in scouting out areas.

Have you thought about just stating that their open locks skill functions 2 levels below a thief of similar level? That would make a 6th level scout function as a 4th level thief when using the skill "open locks". It also restricts their starting abilities and gives them something to work towards as they level up.

Just my .02 tossed in.
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Longman
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:18 pm

Crazycrypt, Smoot and others,

What's the latest thinking on this class? Is the 2nd version of this (the one on the downloads page) still the latest and best available? Or, has someone else made a new one?

I have a character who wants to be a d6 hp, tracker / trapper / climber / hider / sneaker / bowyer, with seemingly no interest in locks and picking pockets, and not much interest in traps unless they are of the outdoor variety.

Seems a perfect fit, but all that, and the bow bonus, and the two-handed bonus, is a lot of cool stuff for just 1250 exp a level.

I was thinking 2000 exp per level, as though she were a type of fighter with a worse HD, and a worse BAB as well.

Please point me in the direction of any newer versions of this class.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:45 pm

If there were a newer version, it would have been mentioned here. CC is one of my regular players, and I do seem to remember he was talking about working on the class some more, but I can't recall any more than that. Perhaps he'll chime in soon.
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Longman
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:49 pm

I partly asked because Smoot mentioned he had his own version. Is that around on BF anywhere?

I'd like to see what others have done, generally. There seems to be some agreement this this iteration a bit OP, and lots of of different ideas on how to address that.
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