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Re: OCD Thread (All players)

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:16 pm
by Longman
It's cool. Fido levelled up when Talin hit 3rd level and took the 3 hp average deal, taking him to 9. He will level up again when Talin hits 7th level, or when he is 3 years old. (He is still only 2).

Re: OCD Thread (All players)

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:21 pm
by Longman
Heading out for weekend, might have no internet. Steve.

Re: OCD Thread (All players)

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:19 pm
by Woe
I'll be on the road for the next two weeks but checking in as much as I can.

Re: OCD Thread (All players)

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:34 am
by Woe
Some comments on the house rules:

For defender, do you want to make it based on skill ranks and not levels? You did this for weapon specialization (+2AB @ rank 1, +3AB @ rank 2, +1 attack at rank 3). While I'd love it to be based on level, this would be a no-brainer at level 7 (+9 or 10 AB) and would skip the +6 benefit completely.

Shield bash: One free, extra attack every round? I think that's overpowered, +2.5 extra damage/round compared to Brute (+1) or favored enemy (+3 occasionally). That puts a longsword+shield (1d8+1d4 -> 4.5+2.5 -> 7 damage, +1 AC) better even for damage than a 2H sword (1d10 -> 5.5 damage, +0 AC). Even if the 2H'er picks up Brute, that's still 7 damage and +1 AC vs 5.5 damage and +0 AC.

You could rename point blank 3 as 'sniper' :)

Re: OCD Thread (All players)

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:15 pm
by Longman
On the subject of defender - odd, because that was your suggestion originally to make it based on BAB past a certain level! I have been thinking about making it a straight +4, not adjusted by level at all. I hadn't thought to make it based on skill ranks because I figure there are going to be too many other things for people to spend the ranks on.

Also - I am not sure of our math - if we followed BAB according to the BF core rules table, it's only at 11th level that the benefit would climb above +6.

For shield bash - what would you suggest? Penalties on both attacks?

Thanks for your input.

Re: OCD Thread (All players)

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:56 am
by Woe
Just because I had an idea doesn't make it a good one. :D

I thought about this a lot in the car today, because I'd like to reuse what you come up with in the future. Achieving balance is the tough part here, because even if players aren't minmaxers, they'll still end up getting biased by exceptionally good/bad skills. Here are a LOT of thoughts. I had a lot of time in the car.

Here's what I came up with to help shape my thinking:
- a skill is either always available or situational. Weapon specialization is always available; favored enemy is situational.
- for combat bonuses, always available should be equivalent to a +1 stat bonus e.g. +1 to hit and +1 damage; or +2 to hit and +0 damage.
- for combat bonuses, situational should be +4 (or more).
- I've always treated +2 to-hit equivalent to +10% to hit, which would mean the expected damage would increase by 10%. A fighter brandishing a longsword who strikes 25% of the time (16-20) would have an expected damage/round of 1.125 (0.25*4.5). The same fighter who gets a +2 to hit (14-20) would see his damage go up to 1.575 hp/round. Using a 50% chance, he'd go from 2.25 to 2.7. +2 damage is harder for my brain to compute, because it depends on the likelihood of hitting. I usually assume 25% likelihood (16-20) and a longsword: 4.5*.25 -> 1.125 damage/round. If the fighter gets +2 damage, that's 5.5*1.375 (less than 1.575) damage/round. If the same fighter has a 50% chance (11-20), the +2 damage would take him from 2.25 hp/round to 2.75 hp/round. Slightly higher, but you never seem to throw creatures at me where I have a 50% chance of hit. :)
- whatever I said before about scaling with level gain, ignore. I think it's a good idea. I think it's a lot harder to achieve than #1 and #2.


Now feedback on the specific skills, using the above general guidelines:
Weapon specialization: seems fine to me. Something below on ranks though.
You stated the skill gain for martial characters, but what about non-martial characters? I think you want them to also get combat skills since Armor and Medium|Large weapons are in the list.
Brute: Feels weaker given both the math above (third point) and my second point. Why +1 and not +2?
Defender: I had a totally different idea for defender, something more like bodyguard. I may not have expressed it well. One problem I have with D&D (opposed to 4e) is, why monsters don't skip the tin cans and first eliminate the bigger threats, like wizards. Wizards can hit harder and go down faster, so save the tin cans for a few rounds later. Tin cans tend to run away after half of the party ends up in the monsters' stomachs anyway. So my original idea: the bonus to the armor class would go to the target character that the defender was defending, like Kilian defending Tiana. This is a situational skill, hence being willing to go with the +4 AC opposed to a lower AC.
Favored enemy: see math above. To hit > damage IMO.
Two weapon fighting (2WF): Works for me, though I have concerns about the second attack. There's a forum post somewhere about secondary attacks for fighters and that changing a lot more than just a bit of damage. I can't find it now. I found it solely by browsing and being bored. This turns a d6 or d8 attack into a 2d6 attack. That's pretty huge. I think there was a penalty to the second attack, though I forget what it was. The penalty probably offsets the extra attack. I think this would end up as a +1 AC or +2(ish) damage, which is compliant with the guidelines above.
Shield bash: You saw the math. This is awesome. +1 AC and a free d4 attack, and STR bonuses should apply (IMO). I'm not sure what I'd change. Bash only if the target attacked the character and the attack missed? Allow a saving throw against DEX or paralysis as well as the to-hit attempt? Maybe it's ok, but it's +1 AC and +2(ish) damage. The and vs or is what makes me like 2WF and not shield bash. /shrug :)
Defense: That's it. It'll never be chosen, especially if non-fighters can pick up Armor and fighters are picking up shield bash.
Toughness: +2 hp at level 1 is awesome. Those same +2 hp by level 10 is a poor bargain, especially since other skills (shield bash, 2WF) scale with the character level.
Medium and large weapons: Yep, no problem there. Mages should be able to pick it up after medium weapons. I don't know if it will ever happen, but a wizard swinging a claymore would be funny to see.
Sneak attack: I thought we removed this for our version of scouts. Right?
Armor: Cool! This benefits both thieves and magic-users. Do you intend this to be wear without class penalties for wearing? The thief supplement currently has penalties for wearing > leather armor, so I'd expect this skill to either offset or negate those penalties. Negate might be a little high. As for magic-users, negating the "can't cast in armor" restriction might be really steep. I like it. I'm just wondering about class balance.
Point blank: I agree with all three. #3 might provide too many benefits relative to others.

Skill progression:
I like AD&D 2.0 when they added proficiencies. It's very much like your house rules. I also like how additional skill-ups allowed for either deeper growth in one area, or breadth in other areas. You first made me think about proficiencies with the comment about weapon specialization (+1 attack at three ranks).

If you want to allow multiple ranks, you can solve this by doubling the skill points gained at 3/5/7/... but allowing only one skill to be new -- the other has to be depth. At level three, a character would have a rank-2 and a rank-1. At level 5, it'd be 3/1/1 or 2/2/1.

Or, just leave it flat and don't allow for depth on skills like specialization and defender. Not my preference but definitely easier.

:)

Re: OCD Thread (All players)

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:02 am
by Longman
my brain hurts. :?

I have a higher degree in English History and I'm good at scenario design. Maths, no.

Also - I am tweaking my own houerules for this PLUS designing a whole new homebrew system called TOUGHNESS and they keep getting mixed in together in my brain.

Will get back to you.

Re: OCD Thread (All players)

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:26 am
by Woe
I have a math degree but probability wasn't my favorite class. I was more on the "real world" (computers) side of the math courses. I completely skipped English in college because I dun good nuff in high school. :)

Re: OCD Thread (All players)

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:06 pm
by Longman
Some of the listed skills are from my home-brew and could be removed. They are the ones that refer the thieves and wizards learning to use other types of weapons and armor. If I keep them I have to figure out when those classes get ranks in this system.

Yeah, Shield Bash is way OP. I think I will have penalties that are not as bad as normal two handed fighting - something like -3 with the shield bash and -1 with the regular attack.

Basically, my ranks in weapon specialization system should work like the one in Combat Options except that I give ranks at 1st, 3rd, 5th instead of 4th, 7th, etc. (Also, I skip the 3/2 phase.)

So, a character who has 3 ranks with any kind with a weapon also gets an extra attack per round. Meaning - a character with the basic +2 to hit, then +1 damage, then a further +1 to hit, also gets an extra attack every round.

I disagree about damage. I haven't done the maths exactly. I just think that doing extra damage is very valuable in combat, moreso than hitting more easily. This is because scoring a hit and then rolling bad damage happens all the time, and means the creature is still alive and can attack you next round. But a high damage bonus means you always do that damage, no matter what.

I think I will change Defender to be a straight +8 on AC while doing full defence - with subsequent additions of +2 for purchasing it again.

If you want to put Bodyguard in as a different skill to defender, that's cool. At this stage I think it would just be +4 to your own AC and +4 to someone else's AC, if not attacking.

You get more of these at 5th level, still a ways off. Maybe the mage and thief will get them at 5th level too.

Re: OCD Thread (All players)

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:29 am
by Woe
When I minmax (too often, I think), I look at damage-per-round to get an idea of improving the output. Here's a few examples:
If a fighter has a 20% chance to hit with a longsword (d8), that's avg(d8) * 20% per round -> 4.5 x 20% -> 0.9 expected damage per round
Same fighter with +2 to hit -> 4.5 x 30% -> 1.35 expected damage per round
Same fighter with +2 damage -> 6.5 x 20% -> 1.30 expected damage per round

Assume for fun, 50% chance to hit (11-20 instead of 17-20):
baseline: avg(d8) * 50% per round -> 4.5 x 50% -> 2.25 expected damage per round
Same fighter with +2 to hit -> 4.5 x 60% -> 2.70 expected damage per round
Same fighter with +2 damage -> 6.5 x 50% -> 3.25 expected damage per round

So at some point, damage bonus > to-hit bonus. But I've never met a GM who throws creatures at me with a low AC but high health. :P The break-even point is around 30% to hit, or 15-20.

I'm sure we'll figure it out by the time I hit level 5. :)