New, and somewhat confused about...

[Solomoriah]

There was 3 of them and I threw in an NPC, just because I had tested it with 4 characters myself. They all got very... average rolls, some even rolled with a total modifier in the negatives and I let them reroll until it at least evened out.

This is how I do it.

I rolled on the table and they got a +1 longsword, which no one used (the dwarf insisted on using his axe).

SERIOUSLY? What the heck? These are beginners with no magic items, right?

Wow.

Meanwhile...

Room 6: The elf and halfling tried to enter room 6.

Ooh. Questionable play on the part of the adventurers. 1) You never split the party (there's even a song about that) and 2) you don't open up unknown areas while a fight is going on.

They used the key, and the halfling snuck in and hid successfully. The elf was seen and tried to battle the kobolds at the choke point of the doorway. He eventually ran out (backed out) and closed the door and tried to hold it shut. The halfling snuck around the commotion into room 7.

Room 7: At this point, the halfling opens the door to room 7 and sees the Goblin and a bunch of dead kobolds. The elf is trying to barricade himself against the door, and the fighter has only downed one of the dogs. Things aren't looking good. The fighter downs another dog, one left. The elf runs into 5h and closes the door, the kobolds after him spread out to find him. The goblin and halfling start to talk. The goblin SELLS the Idol of Taj to the halfling for 50gp and says he was only using the kobolds for his entertainment.

Okay, THIS is funny. In a good way. I love treacherous NPCs/monsters.

I thought it was a good idea at first, I like the whole 4 person system- I like it but I don't like it. I like the thought of the thief and stuff, and fighter and cleric, but I don't think it goes deep enough, like I'd like to have sub-classes so I can get that aspect that I want. When (another player) got his Bugbear Crusader he got to be unique.

This is a hard thing for modern players to get past. Just because the game provides a limited number of classes does not mean you can't be "unique."

In the Old School, our characters don't begin play as special, unique snowflakes. It's the experience and events of actually playing the game that makes them that way.

So yeah, give me advice on how to appease my players, make my stuff better, and handle certain things. By the way, some things that came up:
-The fighter wanting to try to sneak past the dogs in armor.
What I did: I told him he couldn't, especially not in armor. I actually afterwards read the post that was put up 2 days ago and I think I came to understand better after the session the power of the 1-n on a 1d6. However, and tell me if you agree, I would think that sometimes maybe a 1-n on a 1d8,10,12,20, etc, would also work. I mean, simple doesn't mean not switching it up, right? Maybe I think he has a 1 in 20 chance of sneaking. This isn't too out there, is it?

Don't tell the player he can't do it. Do remind him he's in noisy metal armor. Then let him try. 1 in 20 sounds workable.

-A "sense motive" check.
What I did: I told them to try and discern my voice. I did a voice (shaky, somewhat scared) and asked him if he actually believed it. This is a problem in my 3.5 game where people would rather roll a die instead of actually having faith or fear in what others tell them

If we had a Sense Motive check in BFRPG, or indeed anywhere in the OSR, we wouldn't let the player roll or see the die. Just like trap detection, you should not know if your roll was a success or not.

Uncertainty is one of the things that makes the game exciting. If you have a good chance of knowing, it's a lot less interesting.

-"5 foot step" or leaving combat.
What I did: He wanted to move 5 feet backwards, and I know the rule of running away (Attack at a +2 with their back turned when they leave) but I also thought I read about you backing away at half speed, but the other person can still follow and attack? I let him back up and close the door, but gave the kobold one free attack. Let me know if I did this wrong or could handle it better!

On a Fighting Withdrawal, you are allowed to move up to 1/2 your regular movement backwards, while maintaining your facing. The enemy can, of course, follow, on his, her, or its next initiative, but not before. Moving more than half your movement requires turning your back on the opponent, allowing him to take an extra melee strike at you with a "from behind" bonus of +2.

Last note: I know I'm looking for a lot of mechanical rules in a system where the GM should be the one making judgement calls with the "metarules" of the game. I just want to get a good leg up from those with experience. Thanks!

I understand. I'm honestly impressed.

Let me suggest one thing. I know you like to create your own adventures, but I strongly recommend running some of ours. The adventures on the Basic Fantasy site were created by people who grew up in the Old School, and I have to say there's a lot of things we do when we create and run adventures that don't appear in the Core Rules. We teach by example, rather than by lecture.

[dymondy2k]

I have to agree with Chris.. but if playing this session was even 1/2 as exciting as reading about I think you did great. There was some complete insanity going on in different areas and your players and you doing your best to react to them. I think this is where OSR shines in the fluidity of encounters like this where you aren't bogged down in all the skill checks, feats and other stuff.

BTW Chris I think even in the 3.5/4e era, that the DM should be rolling the players skill checks because I really think that players 'don't know what they don't know'. When you say 'you didn't hear anything' they should never know it was because they rolled low or that there was nobody on the other side of that door.

[LibraryLass]

I thought it was a good idea at first, I like the whole 4 person system- I like it but I don't like it. I like the thought of the thief and stuff, and fighter and cleric, but I don't think it goes deep enough, like I'd like to have sub-classes so I can get that aspect that I want. When (another player) got his Bugbear Crusader he got to be unique.

This is a hard thing for modern players to get past. Just because the game provides a limited number of classes does not mean you can't be "unique."

In the Old School, our characters don't begin play as special, unique snowflakes. It's the experience and events of actually playing the game that makes them that way.

Attachment to mechanical uniqueness is a hard pitfall to overcome, but I've found that having one or two more classes can be just what the doctor ordered.

Edit: I seem to remember hearing that seven is the average number of distinct data points most people can easily remember (with a standard variation of two), so I'd recommend that as an upper limit

So yeah, give me advice on how to appease my players, make my stuff better, and handle certain things. By the way, some things that came up:
-The fighter wanting to try to sneak past the dogs in armor.
What I did: I told him he couldn't, especially not in armor. I actually afterwards read the post that was put up 2 days ago and I think I came to understand better after the session the power of the 1-n on a 1d6. However, and tell me if you agree, I would think that sometimes maybe a 1-n on a 1d8,10,12,20, etc, would also work. I mean, simple doesn't mean not switching it up, right? Maybe I think he has a 1 in 20 chance of sneaking. This isn't too out there, is it?

Don't tell the player he can't do it. Do remind him he's in noisy metal armor. Then let him try. 1 in 20 sounds workable.

Totally. As I believe I said before, the most important GMing lesson I ever learned was one simple principle: "Say yes or roll the dice."

-A "sense motive" check.
What I did: I told them to try and discern my voice. I did a voice (shaky, somewhat scared) and asked him if he actually believed it. This is a problem in my 3.5 game where people would rather roll a die instead of actually having faith or fear in what others tell them

This is a good way of handling it, if you have the acting chops to pull it off.

[Sir Bedivere]

Cool adventure. Thanks for posting it!

I second what Solomoriah said above about uniqueness. Instead of focusing on mechanical, rules-based ways to be unique, that guy needs to figure out a unique playing style for that character and play it to the hilt. Even if it gets him killed.

Think of it like this: What defines your character? A bunch of rules and stats, or your own style of play? Which is more unique?

Obviously, I would argue that defining your own style of play, your own personality, creates a more unique character than any detailed combination of stats.

[teluria]

Just popping in to give my two cents worth...I think it all comes down to the maturity of your players as well as the creativity you bring as a GM. I'm very prone to improvising as I go. I usually have two or three scenarios sort of plotted out in my head and the rest is make it up as I go along. My philosophy is as follows (I run a light fantasy setting)
1) Is it funny?
2) Is it fair?
3) Will it keep the player's interested in the game?

If it doesn't meet one of those tests then I don't do it.

The most important thing, whether you play old school or modern or whatever, is are you enjoying yourself and are your players enjoying themselves? If your players are all min/maxers used to Wow or some other MMORPG, then you're going to have a bit of challenge, if they are coming more from a roleplaying background then it's not going to be difficult at all.

[Robb_d20]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone! Just going to bring up a couple more things that I have questions or comments about. Also, this is probably the most supportive RPG forum I've had the privilege to post on and get real replies!

I don't know if you have looked at the downloads page, but there are a lot of supplements available to allow for customization of PCs. I am of the opinion that you should start with the basics and add in more complicated things after you have been playing a while. Old school gaming is much different than new school. For one, at lower levels the death rate might be much higher than your players are used to, but since it doesn't take long to roll up a new PC that isn't as bad as it sounds.

Thanks! I did, but I wanted to start as vanilla as possible for the first run- that's just how I do everything. I wouldn't add salt to food before I tried it to try and make it better- I could be ruining it for all I know! That said, I will likely allow for some supplements, especially with 6 players, after I get them used to the system and the old school mindset.

I rolled on the table and they got a +1 longsword, which no one used (the dwarf insisted on using his axe).

SERIOUSLY? What the heck? These are beginners with no magic items, right?

Wow.

Well, when I asked him in game, he told me he decided his axe was a family heirloom and put a good, brief RP moment in there. He graciously accepted it from the kobold, so I was happier about the roleplay than confused about him not using the sword.

Meanwhile...

Room 6: The elf and halfling tried to enter room 6.

Ooh. Questionable play on the part of the adventurers. 1) You never split the party (there's even a song about that) and 2) you don't open up unknown areas while a fight is going on.

Yeah, they're learning. The fighter wasn't too happy about it lol. Also, where is this song? I shall sing my players the song of your people.

I thought it was a good idea at first, I like the whole 4 person system- I like it but I don't like it. I like the thought of the thief and stuff, and fighter and cleric, but I don't think it goes deep enough, like I'd like to have sub-classes so I can get that aspect that I want. When (another player) got his Bugbear Crusader he got to be unique.

This is a hard thing for modern players to get past. Just because the game provides a limited number of classes does not mean you can't be "unique."

In the Old School, our characters don't begin play as special, unique snowflakes. It's the experience and events of actually playing the game that makes them that way.

Good way to put it. I'll have to explain that to them. I just need to tell them that rather than picking your alignment and all that, you are who your actions become you. Many times I see the Lawful Neutral character acting wayyyy too chaotic.

Last note: I know I'm looking for a lot of mechanical rules in a system where the GM should be the one making judgement calls with the "metarules" of the game. I just want to get a good leg up from those with experience. Thanks!

I understand. I'm honestly impressed.

Let me suggest one thing. I know you like to create your own adventures, but I strongly recommend running some of ours. The adventures on the Basic Fantasy site were created by people who grew up in the Old School, and I have to say there's a lot of things we do when we create and run adventures that don't appear in the Core Rules. We teach by example, rather than by lecture.

Thanks! That actually means a lot, and I went through Morgansfort afterwards just to get an idea. One thing I've never done well is use premade adventures- I've always been from scratch, even starting out. My theory was it was easier to adjust my own stuff on the fly, and that if I screwed it up then I can wing it. If I did that with a written adventure, I might have ruined the entire adventure and lost myself trying to salvage it. On that note though, I do want to run them through Morgansfort (I am actually planning on buying all 4 available print campaigns) if for no reasons other than to give them a taste of old school developed by someone who is that, and to give myself a better understanding by running said taste of it. I've also actually uncovered a 3.0 level 1 adventure and bought at a overstock book store for a couple bucks a 3.5 level 2 adventure. I plan on starting to study adventure and campaign design, because if I'm boring myself with the same old, then I'm definitely boring my players.

I have to agree with Chris.. but if playing this session was even 1/2 as exciting as reading about I think you did great. There was some complete insanity going on in different areas and your players and you doing your best to react to them. I think this is where OSR shines in the fluidity of encounters like this where you aren't bogged down in all the skill checks, feats and other stuff.

Thank you! This really made me smile when I read it, and gave me the confidence to say I really did enjoy it, rough as it may have been. I haven't enjoyed 3.5 lately and my players know I felt like it was becoming more work in planning than fun. It may be because I'm being influenced by those who like to plan out everything so that it is all there and that minute information is being used and recorded and written. But, I feel like already with my understanding of BFRPG I can get back to having fun.

Cool adventure. Thanks for posting it!

I second what Solomoriah said above about uniqueness. Instead of focusing on mechanical, rules-based ways to be unique, that guy needs to figure out a unique playing style for that character and play it to the hilt. Even if it gets him killed.

Think of it like this: What defines your character? A bunch of rules and stats, or your own style of play? Which is more unique?

Obviously, I would argue that defining your own style of play, your own personality, creates a more unique character than any detailed combination of stats.

Indeed! And thanks for the kind words! I just need to get it into my heads that THEY, and not some numbers on a page, are what makes their character unique.

Just popping in to give my two cents worth...I think it all comes down to the maturity of your players as well as the creativity you bring as a GM. I'm very prone to improvising as I go. I usually have two or three scenarios sort of plotted out in my head and the rest is make it up as I go along. My philosophy is as follows (I run a light fantasy setting)
1) Is it funny?
2) Is it fair?
3) Will it keep the player's interested in the game?

If it doesn't meet one of those tests then I don't do it.

The most important thing, whether you play old school or modern or whatever, is are you enjoying yourself and are your players enjoying themselves? If your players are all min/maxers used to Wow or some other MMORPG, then you're going to have a bit of challenge, if they are coming more from a roleplaying background then it's not going to be difficult at all.

That list may be something of use to me. As well as the rest of your advice. I think I traditionally spend too much time planning EVERY encounter, wondering about how I ca modify the monsters best to suit my party so they can beat it and be heroes, get the loot, save the princess, and still tell a great story before I go to work after the session. Maybe an open world that will change and get better with their own input is the way to go.

As for the list itself, I don't do funny enough. Sometimes I'll make a pun, but really, why do I treat my sessions so seriously? I definitely need more humor, and that simple list just made me realize that out of the blue. Well, I DID have the skull of Kobold Jesus in my Blood Rose bush, but that was about it. But, I do have to arguments against your advice regarding my players-
1) They all want different levels of humor/story/hack n slash and it's a chore keeping them all happy.
2) Because of #1, it's hard to gauge if everyone is enjoying themselves entirely or only sometimes.

Phew. Now that I replied, another couple of things.

1) Okay, so I forgot to ask this- what is a good versus mechanic? Like I said, the Elf Cleric propped himself against the door to try and keep the kobolds out. Should I do a 1-n roll based on how strong I think a kobold is compared to him? Maybe let him roll an ability check modified by the "strength" of the kobold? Roll for the kobold instead because he's the one trying to push? Or is this one of those "Do what the GM thinks is best" moments? Because I did opposed ability rolls, but now I'm double guessing myself. For physical rolls, or any, I DO like to let my players roll- it makes it enjoyable for them so I let them roll anything I can without ruining the meta (I still roll for hide/move silently, etc...).

2) I talked since to the other two players in the adventure. While I don't have direct quotes, I do know what they said. The fighter said he felt underpowered and it was annoying that he kept missing the dogs. I replied with the group not splitting up would have made it faster, and he agreed. I also brought up that I should have let him try and sneak, but he said it was cool since it was the first session and he still had fun with it. He also really liked rolling randomly for loot.

My other player said it felt like D&D, just different, and he liked it as much as 3.5. I was satisfied with that answer as it was so I didn't push him for more.

3) I plan on running my other players, with or without the players I already ran, through another test adventure. I want this one to have more roleplay/less hack n' slash so I can show them that it is them who determines their character, not number and words on a page. Any cool or interesting ideas? I saw the rumor table in Morgansfort and I might make my own version for a tavern.

4) On a similar note, I read through he blog posts and found a gem about world-building, and about not doing it. I plan out way too much backstory I don't need since no one will ever ask about it. So, I think I'm going to get a list of quirky things to say, do, hints, etc... for my NPCs. I'll roll every now and again, and if the ask, I'll make something up for it. If I end up getting a really solid idea, I'll keep using it and try to make it interesting to them. If not, eh, then I didn't spend 4 hours making something I didn't use.

5) I just want to say again how happy I am I found BFRPG and how awesome the replies I'm getting are. I already have ideas brewing for classes and monsters and items, and I love the other user content. Without a doubt, BFRPG has quickly become one of my favorite systems, and the useful and quick responses I've gotten to my inquiries and comments the last couple days definitely have to do with that. So, a last thank you to you guys!

[LibraryLass]

Or is this one of those "Do what the GM thinks is best" moments?

Bingo. I'd say the way you handled it and your reasoning are pretty solid though-- rolling plenty of dice IS half the fun after all.

3) I plan on running my other players, with or without the players I already ran, through another test adventure. I want this one to have more roleplay/less hack n' slash so I can show them that it is them who determines their character, not number and words on a page. Any cool or interesting ideas? I saw the rumor table in Morgansfort and I might make my own version for a tavern.

Writing rumor tables like that is a great way to get ideas. It's not a very old school suggestion, but one way to help the players feel more invested is to go around the table a few times and let them flesh out the world a bit too. It makes them think a little about who their character is, and they feel rewarded because it becomes their setting too. Putting some of the creation of the setting in your players' hands can also help deliver you from drowning yourself in backstory while simultaneously providing you with springboards for your creativity.

[Sir Bedivere]

...

I don't know if you have looked at the downloads page, but there are a lot of supplements available to allow for customization of PCs. ...

Thanks! I did, but I wanted to start as vanilla as possible for the first run- that's just how I do everything. I wouldn't add salt to food before I tried it to try and make it better- I could be ruining it for all I know! That said, I will likely allow for some supplements, especially with 6 players, after I get them used to the system and the old school mindset.

Actually, I think house rules should be mandatory. (Cue mild disdain and tut-tuts from the gathered assembly .) IMHO, you aren't really playing it without them, and part of the fun for the GM is tweaking the rules.

A good set of starting house rules that will, IMO, make things a little more palatable for your players would be:

1. Max HP for first level (they should roll for them after that)
2. Bonus spells for MUs & Clerics (see below)
3. Let MUs pick their spells & start off w/ the number of spells they can cast in a day, in addition to Read Magic (i.e., if an MU has 18 INT, then he/she can cast 3 first level spells a day, so he/she should have Read Magic & three more first level spells in the spell book).

Here is the Bonus Spells optional rule for MU. It works the same for Cleric, except it's based on Wisdom instead of INT.

Bonus Spells

With this rule, Magic-Users gain bonus spells for high Intelligence, permitting the character to prepare more spells than given in the Core Rules. The bonus spells allowed are as given on the table below. Characters may not prepare spells above the level they can ordinarily cast; for example, a character with an 18 intelligence receives a second level spell as a bonus spell, but cannot learn or prepare any second level spells until he or she achieves the 3rd level of ability. If the GM uses the optional 0-Level Spells supplement, then the cantrip column can also be used.

The ability to learn and cast additional spells does not necessarily permit the character to begin play knowing more spells than usual; it is up to the GM to decide which spells a Magic-User begins play with.

Intelligence / Bonus Spells / Bonus Cantrips
9 – 11 = No bonus spells / 0
12 = No bonus spells / +1
13 – 15 = 1 x 1st level spell / +1
16 – 17 = 2 x 1st level spells / +2
18 = 2 x 1st, 1 x 2nd level spells / +3

... My philosophy is as follows (I run a light fantasy setting)
1) Is it funny?
2) Is it fair?
3) Will it keep the player's interested in the game?

If it doesn't meet one of those tests then I don't do it.

The most important thing, whether you play old school or modern or whatever, is are you enjoying yourself and are your players enjoying themselves?

That's a great philosophy! (Looks around surreptitiously, pockets the philosophy while no one is looking, walks away slowly, innocently.)

Another good resource is the blog.

[SmootRK]

You mentioned that your fighter felt inadequate. A 1st level fighter is not much better than the other characters. But remember, the fighters biggest feature is their ever-growing capacity to fight. Best Attacking Bonus Progression and their 'best' hd, really begin to shine after acquiring a few levels... and after a couple levels I doubt your player will feel the same.

But, if the player would like some additional features to work with, the Combat Options (especially the draft being worked on currently - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=180 ) adds a few ways to enhance an fighter (and in some cases, others as well).

[Hywaywolf]

Never split the party...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waa2ucfgVgQ