Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

How about letting the player to choose between having the second attack after a hit or after a miss.
For fighters you can let them make the second attack on either occasion and or reduce their two weapon penalties (maybe give them a +2 bonus to any "combat maneuver value" like 2 weapon combat, parry, disarm, etc)

Dimirag wrote:How about letting the player to choose between having the second attack after a hit or after a miss.
For fighters you can let them make the second attack on either occasion and or reduce their two weapon penalties (maybe give them a +2 bonus to any "combat maneuver value" like 2 weapon combat, parry, disarm, etc)

I think a process of choosing might be an unnecessary extra step...
already one can choose whether or not to:
1- fight with just the primary hand normally (and getting the defensive quality of the secondary weapon, albeit 1 opponent).
2- fight with both weapons(potentially getting the secondary attack with a successful hit).

Adding the choice, means that once one opts for the second option, one must then declare whether to get the swing with the miss, or whether to get the attack with a successful hit. It is a fine option, I just don't know whether I want that extra little declaration tied into the process.

Plus, having the second attacked tied to the success of the first attack ties directly to my goal of making this specifically more beneficial to the Fighter class regardless of the Dexterity thing. Just having Dexterity as the controlling factor actually weighs the ability more to thieves (Dexterity based characters). Dexterity is still a factor, but with the necessity of the first attack being successful gives an big indirect boost that favors the Fighter types.

I'm going to need to do some thinking and digging on this one.

As a quick note, would the second attack have to be against the same target?

Joe the Rat wrote:I'm going to need to do some thinking and digging on this one.

As a quick note, would the second attack have to be against the same target?

I would think so. Something I should probably put into the text.

I should probably put in a small detail about Weapon Specialization and number of attacks. The extra attacks of specialization only apply to one weapon... even if one uses 2 daggers (talking specialized in daggers as well) in combat, one only gets the bonus attack once. Not for both hands (no 4+ attacks per round)

If one was specialized in both Longswords and Daggers, and while the attack bonuses are applicable, the hand that gets the extra attacks must be declared before any attack rolls are made. No crazy whirlwind attack routines for characters with specialization and dual weapon use.

I know that my ideas gives an extra step, but allows for a little more versatility the player states that he uses the secondary weapon on a success or a failure before rolling the dice).

For the "extra thing" for fighters... the AB works fine alone although I didn't do any value comparison between characters specially a low Dex fighter vs a high Dex thief).

two-weapon fighting provides one (1) additional attack per round... maybe. I wouldn't think the note on specialization would be necessary, but I've begun to appreciate the need for anti-cheese measures. You might let them split their "normal" attacks with spec weapons between hands, but their follow-up has to be with the other weapon (no double-tap). Forgive me if I missed this, but in dealing with specialization, when making the off-hand attack, do you have to declare which "normal" attack it follows beforehand? And do attack penalties apply only to the specific attack that gets the follow-through, or would it apply to the whole sequence?

Mechanically, the follow-up on hit turns two weapon use into "roughly two-handed" damage, only at greater risk of failure. The offset is you have some flexibility in being able to switch between more damage and better defense. Vis-a-vis sword and board and two-handers, you're setting up a poorer effect compared to each in exchange for flexibility. The caveat here is that with high dex, the riskier extended damage can get big fast - You could have 1d10+2(+strength), or you could have d8(+str) + a large fraction of d6(+str? maybe drop strength bonus on the off-hand?) or an even more insane most of d8+str, + a little bit less d8 than that. Against easy targets, two-weapon could outstrip two-handed in terms of potential damage. This is a concern with the standard rules as well, though. I can see where limiting the added attack following a hit channels this into being only a way to add damage, rather than playing to odds to score any damage with extra attempts.

In a lot of ways, this functions as a poor-mans's critical hit. If you hit (at potentially poorer odds), you roll to confirm (i.e. roll a second strike) with the extra weapon. At -2/-4 base, 16+ dex makes this a fair gamble... which means that inferior BAB aside, this is still a very thief friendly setup (and it helps with the no shield thing). The two-weapon makes sense in a backstab as well - if you make the follow-up a regular attack (no added bonus to hit or multipliers). Making it contingent on success does favor those with high BAB, as they are more likely to benefit from its effect. Dimirag's point about the hit/miss option (or even defaulting back to "you get an additional attack") is friendlier to the ones who are less likely to hit in the first place - without contingency (or specifically on a miss), it gives you a second chance to do any damage, rather than only a chance for additional damage.

If you really think that fighters need an edge specifically in regard to two-weapon fighting, let's borrow Dimirag's idea and work it differently. Where everyone else needs to choose defend or attempt attack, fighters are allowed to keep the AC bonus while attempting the double attack - but they do have to declare the attempt (and apply penaties). Another direction - again, for Fighters - would be more options. Choose between parrying weapon (+1 AC), double attack (-whatever/whatever), or off-hand feint (forcing an opening, +1 to attack).

Is there a specific fighting style you're looking at here? The approach you have here is of someone laying into a single opponent (which is smart), but there will be times you need to switch targets. So you decide to double-strike, and your first hit takes him down. Leaving specialization out for a moment, does this mean you've taken a long gamble for nothing, or would this be a point where you can attempt at another opponent within reach? That too might be a potential fighter's benefit.

aaahhh... making my head hurt.

I can agree with most of what you have there. But, I am not wanting to make the rule too wonky and convoluted. My intent was to take the basics that Solo made (which are roughly fine in my book) and make them a tad more bent towards the Fighter than to the Thief.

Another way one might approach this is simply a bonus for the Fighter class applied to exactly to how the Rule functions according to Solo's original material. Fighters get to reduce the penalty for two-weapon fighting by 1 point (down to zero penalty, never turning into a bonus). At 5th level the penalties are reduced another 1 point, then again at 10th level, 15th, and finally at 20th.

This would allow a Fighter's level (skill) to outpace a Thief's dexterity, and a Dextrous Fighter would definitely do this even earlier.

Just more stuff to think about.

For my house-rules I'm thinking on including an AB based value for use with combat maneuvers, and as fighters gets the best AB they'll get the best value to modify different penalties or bonuses.

While others don't see the point in making extraneous statements, putting stuff down in legalese, so to say... I agree that I too appreciate putting in "anti-cheese" statements to close such loopholes and grey area where the conniving player-ruleslawyer might try to exploit.

I love the term "anti-cheese measures"

Here is the tweaked out stuff (so far... this is all still very debatable).

Two-Weapon or Dual-Weapon Style
When a combatant uses an off hand weapon, he may roll an additional attack if the first (primary hand) attack strikes. The primary hand weapon is penalized -2 to hit and the second attack roll (assuming the first attack is successful) is penalized -4 but both of these penalties are offset by the character's Dexterity Bonus down to zero penalty (never becoming a positive bonus). This is based upon the main weapon being medium-sized and a small off-hand weapon such as Longsword & Dagger. Of course, the size requirements are relative, so small characters are more limited and larger sized individuals may use larger weapons.

If both such weapons are small, such as a short sword and dagger, then the penalties are reduced by 1 to a -1 primary weapon and -3 penalty for off-hand. If one chooses to dual wield with 2 medium-sized weapons such as 2 battle axes or longsword and battle axe (or any such combination), then the penalty is increased to -3 for primary weapon and -5 for the off-hand.

Alternatively, the character may attack normally with the primary weapon (without penalty) and the off-hand weapon may be utilized defensively to increase Armor Class by 1 (or more if the off hand weapon is magical), but only against one opponent directly facing or engaged with the dual-wielder. This is different from Shields which affect AC uniformly against all facing opponents, not just one such opponent. When magical weapons are utilized, only the primary magical bonus is applied except when employed specifically against the appropriate special situation. For instance, a short sword +1/+3 vs dragons gives only a +1 AC bonus, changing to the +3 bonus only when defending against a dragon's attacks.

In either case, the character must declare the manner in which he is utilizing his weapons before any relevant attack rolls are made. The player may declare either option has his standard routine, but changing the routine must be declared before a new attack roll is made.

Special note on weapon specialization: Two-weapon style fighting grants only one additional attack with the off-hand weapon (contingent on successfully hitting with the very first primary hand attack), coming at the end of all other attacks in a given round, regardless of combinations of weapon specialization or other similar features.

What about the ideas in this thread on Dragonsfoot?