Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

When I used to be the Editor in Chief of Footprints on Dragonsfoot, the one type of article I never accepted was new classes. The first Footprints, which I laid out but was not in charge of, had a class called the Mask. It was a cleric/fighter/magic-user/thief with a few added features. No kidding, go look.

There is no faster way to screw up your game than to allow a bad class. Unfortunately, there is no consensus about what, exactly, is a bad class. I'd like to think that all the class writeups I've accepted on this forum are "good" (though I already know that the Pyromancer has major balance issues).

But... I've noticed lately that the top supplement type in my inbox seems to be classes. We already have more than one way to do several of the subclasses, and yet I still have them coming in.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to be more choosy. In fact, I feel pretty strongly that I need to drop some of the classes I already have on the site. I think we need to get down to just one way to do each class. Otherwise, they'll take over. I see issues already with confusion about what's "official" or which version of a class "should" be used.

I'd like some feedback here. As of right now, here are all the classes posted on the site:

Assassin by Eric C. Medders and Chris Gonnerman
Barbarian (Fighter Subclasses) by William Smith
Barbarian by Luigi Castellani
Druid by Chris Gonnerman
Great Way Adept by Luigi Castellani
Illusionist by Chris Gonnerman
Jester by Brendan Falconer
Necromancer by R. Kevin Smoot
Paladin (Fighter Subclasses) by William Smith
Paladin by Wynter Sturtevant III
Pyromancer by Jason Brentlinger and Chris Wolfmeyer
Ranger (Fighter Subclasses) by William Smith
Ranger by Chris Gonnerman
Scout by Jason Brentlinger
Sorcerer by Ray Allen
Spellcrafter by Luigi Castellani

This list omits two class supplements: R. Kevin Smoot's Quasi-Classes and Luigi Castellani's Divine Champions. Both of those supplements take a somewhat different approach to class mechanics, so I've left them out of this discussion. I expect both to stay on the site for the moment.

Two barbarians, two paladins, two rangers. Actually, it appears I haven't posted the second paladin yet, but I do plan to; I've been discussing incorporating it into my Rangers and Paladins supplement, and I think I dropped the ball. But the point is, we have too many of these classes.

I guess they fall into these categories:

Advanced classes would be those classes associated with a certain "Advanced" game system:
- Assassin
- Druid
- Illusionist
- Paladin
- Ranger

Familiar classes would be those we recognize from classic-era supplementary material, such as magazine articles and advanced-era rule supplements, as well as those "backported" from "modern" role-playing games:
- Barbarian
- Jester
- Necromancer
- Pyromancer
- Sorcerer

Novel classes are those which are more or less entirely new. I'm not certain of everything I've included in this category:
- Great Way Adept
- Scout
- Spellcrafter

Each of the currently-published supplements have something going for them, which we should try to save. I'm strongly leaning toward the creation of an Advanced Classes Supplement, containing the classes in the first category above. This one would be "official" in the same sense as the Field Guide. Actually, let's say "recommended" rather than "official." I'd like to combine the best elements of both Paladins and both Rangers listed above, though I'm sure that in each case, one version will be predominantly represented. It's how it always goes, it seems.

I'd like to keep the "familiar" classes more or less as they are, though I'll admit I don't like Sorcerers on general principles and I don't think Pyromancers are ready for prime time. Likewise, the "novel" classes would remain separate as they are now.

On the other hand, I'm going to declare a moratorium on acceptance of new versions of classes we already have, and I'm going to look long and hard at any "familiar" or "novel" class that comes my way from now on before accepting them. We just have too many classes.

I understand, it's fun to create classes. But as easy as it is to create a class, it's just that hard to get the balance right. From now on, I'm holding class submissions to a higher standard. Please, nobody take that personally... I just think it has to happen.

In the games I run, I use the following classes:

The Core Four
Assassin
Druid
Illusionist
Necromancer (sans the level 0 and level 7 spells, I use my own 0-level spell rules and do not use 7th+ at all)
Great Way Adept

I've personally gone through each class on the downloads page, read them all, created test characters with them all, allowed most of them to be tried-out in games and decided on the ones where I think they fill an valuable niche in the way I run games, do not imbalance the game in a way that I feel hurts gameplay, and for the non-casters are mechanically interesting in some way.

I think this is a good line of thinking. I would very much like to see an Advanced Options Supplement that cohesively brings a number of elements together.

That said, I am a realist when it comes to individuals and their choices of things. People are always going to tinker and play around with the game. This has been going on since the 1970's and will continue regardless of constraints placed before them. For me personally, I am going to use what options that I decide to use, and being the tinkerer that I tend to be as well, I am going to modify stuff even more from options that might be presented to me. No one is going to stop that from happening.

I have shared it with you, that I think you (Solo) are on the right track with coming up with a set of standards that are essentially the 'official or recommended' options. I think this will do much to clarify a standard manner of play and options. But, (as I have shared as well) I think a separate space for 'fan-created options' be created (not just via forum posts). I think it gives a number of people a great deal of satisfaction to have their ideas get down and shared with others. Any supplement that is not on the 'recommended options' page can reside there alongside big disclaimers of being 'unofficial'. Make the separation quite clear.

So, as I see it, the real issue is that "there is confusion over what is 'official' or 'recommended' versus various fan-made ideas. People writing or creating stuff is not a problem, in fact, I would say that it is absolutely vital that people feel like they can produce material for the game that others might find interesting or valuable.

We are much too small of a Niche Group of an already small Niche Group of Gamers to be high and mighty and exclusive of people's contributions and participation. Prepare a space for them to share... AND make a clear set of official options.
It becomes WIN WIN (official stuff and folks get to share their stuff freely), instead of Official Items Win, Non-Official stuff Lose and disappear to nowhereville.

Also, when it comes to the little banners that go across the thumbnails of supplements. Perhaps a new banner (in the manner of 'Playtest' or 'Under Construction') be designed... a "FAN SUBMISSION, Non-Official". This might go a long way in differentiating and reducing any confusion by folks who are new to the site.

I agree with bot Solo and Smoot, some "guidelines" are always welcome specially when dealing with fan-created materials, but its kind of sad that something that someone has put time and effort into ends up lost on the forum, lots of gamers will have different views on one class or another (as they'll do on the game, otherwise there wouldn't be such variations of the original games and of its following incarnations), that's why a place where the "submitted" parts of the game should be place, so people can have access to different takes on existing materials, and to not let those materials get lose on the forum.
This doesn't means that EVERYTHING should be upload on that place, some basic lines should be place to avoid having 10 sub-classes that looks 95% exactly the same...

I can see theproblem with class proliferation.

Personally, I'm willing to see the Great Way Adept go.
While I attempted to emulate the Monk from 'the advanced era' or the Mystic from a certain Cyclopedia, I can also see it sparked zero interest (zero downloads).

While the Spellcrafter received more attention, I'm willing to see it go.
The more time passes, the more I discover being a traditionalist about Old School and the Spellcrafter is 'too modern'.
I'd keep the spells though, so I could change the supplement from a 'new class' to 'new spells'.

Regarding other classes:
As I said I've got a traditionalist streak: I think that anything that does not have a history with Basic or Advanced Games should be a goner.
BFRPG after all tries to emulate a specific kind/era of gaming.

The idea of creating a section for 'fan-creations' sounds good but isn't just about everything present on this site a fan-creation? I find it hard to draw a line personally.

Best regards to all
Artikid

artikid wrote:The idea of creating a section for 'fan-creations' sounds good but isn't just about everything present on this site a fan-creation? I find it hard to draw a line personally.

True enough... but clearly there are differences in both quality of production, as well as a sense of 'is this an old-school item?' or something that will fit into an old-school genre? Solomoriah (Chris) can certainly decide what is on such an 'official or recommended options' page. Someone (or someones) must decide what can go in such a place.

As far as another page where other stuff lands, I see no reason that anyone should be so uppity or snooty to decide the value of other works. Clearly some may be better than others, but what I am more interested in are ideas or concepts than the exact quality of anyone's skill in writing (which is something that improves as one 'writes' more material). I am going to write and incorporate the ideas that best fit into my own concept of the game. Why not have a page where one can find 16 different Rangers? or 7 Paladins? Or ideas from Savage Worlds (game) or even version 7.6 of that certain game we know? We all know that it comes down to individual choice anyhow.

Who is so sure of their particular skill at being a Censor? Who is so skillful at writing to judge other peoples writing?

artikid wrote:Personally, I'm willing to see the Great Way Adept go.
While I attempted to emulate the Monk from 'the advanced era' or the Mystic from a certain Cyclopedia, I can also see it sparked zero interest (zero downloads).

I am willing to bet that there is a coding error with that entry on the download page. The counter is just not working.

As an Open Source believer, I feel that everyone should have a chance to share their stuff. But even in the Open Source world, someone must decide. For instance, in the Linux world we have numerous "distributions" in which a person or a group decides which of the many thousands, perhaps millions, of available Open Source programs will be included.

So there must be a place for everyone to share, but, there must also be a "distribution" of accepted materials, and someone must decide. Generally, "someone" is me. I'm not against getting some help with this; I may consider a voting arrangement to help with the decision process.

This leaves the question of a place for everyone to share. I'd say we use the forum, but it appears this isn't acceptable based on the comments above. So I guess I need to look into adding a "sharing" section to the main site.

SmootRK wrote:

artikid wrote:Personally, I'm willing to see the Great Way Adept go.
While I attempted to emulate the Monk from 'the advanced era' or the Mystic from a certain Cyclopedia, I can also see it sparked zero interest (zero downloads).

I am willing to bet that there is a coding error with that entry on the download page. The counter is just not working.

Darn you, Mr. Smoot. Darn you mightily for finding my error!



Fixed now. 799 downloads. Artikid, it's not as bad as it seemed.