Oh my gods, they killed Kenny! (Hand-and-a-half weapons)

[Joe the Rat]

Yeah. Bastard Swords.

MM and I were discussing some weapon tweaks, and the issue of one-handed weapons that can be used two-handed comes up (specifically spears). This reminds me of the whole hand-and-a-half issue, which as far as I can find has never been well settled for BFRPG.

I thought it might be worth revisiting, to see if we can find a workable, balanced, and ideally simple approach to handling these oddly-handled weapons, and possibly figure out a mechanic to use for other weapons of indeterminate handage. As an off-shoot, we can look at ideas for using regular one-handed weapons in a double grip.

At the core, this is a sword with great versatility. One sword that can be used with shield (or torch, or on horseback), or two-handed for good power swings. This versatility needs to be balanced against other traits - otherwise everyone tall enough would grab one of these on the off chance they lose (or pick up) a shield. We need something that sits between longsword and two-handed sword, and comes up a little short compared to either - or to both.

I suspect the reason this has been difficult is the damage die mechanics. All of the weapons we currently have are single die damage. There's not a lot of room between 1d8 and 1d10. Making it a full longsword/full two-handed sword does not balance well with the other weapons. The spear does do something like this, but it is an underperformer for its size class to start with. Making the sword 2-handed heavy and even more expensive(for whatever reason) would mitigate this some, but I would like to see something not entirely dependent on shop price.


My two initial ideas on damage are fairly simple: either 1d8+1 or 1d10-1 for two-handed use.
[Warning: Math]
The d8+1 is fairly straightforward - a nice bump up from longsword, and still a point below two-handed for maximum damage. This also translates into a less variable weapon (8-point range) with a higher minimum damage, and the same average as a full two-hander (5.5). So you get a two-hander with a more consistent swing.

1d10-1 (minimum 1) presents a slightly different spread - top damage is still below 2-hander, with an intermediate range. The long tail on the low side (distribution 1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, avg. 4.6) also puts the average damage closer to a longsword (4.5) than a two-hander (5.5). This also means the weapon is a lot more likely to hit minimum damage compared to a one-handed swing (20% vs 12.5%) or a two-handed swing (10%).

These are both fairly simple damage adjustments, but it depends a bit on how you want the performance to look compared to the full weapons. And this is only one place where we can tweak this. Any comments or suggestions? Also, does anybody have something that they've been using or considering for this type of weapon?

[SmootRK]

Bastard Sword - 2d4 one handed, 2d4+2 two handed. The double die improves the overall damage performance without overshadowing other weapons. I have no problem with the idea that 2 dice must be rolled sometimes instead of just one.

For that matter, I would make any such one handed weapon that can be wielded two-handed gets a simple +2 damage bonus, including all such existing two handed weapons like spears and pole-arms (just for consistency, but make sure npc and monsters get the same bonus).

Anyhow, that is how I would suggest addressing the issue if I had a hand in the decision (or even in next release of the game).

[MedievalMan]

The minute someone comes up with a workable solution for spears that doesn't have me pulling my hair out, let me know. Because srsly spears are driving me up the wall lately.

EDIT
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ha
I did it I cracked the spear code, mission accomplished.

Short Spear/3 gp/Small/5 lbs/1d6 damage: Can be thrown
Spear/5 gp/Medium/10 lbs/1d8 damage: Cannot be thrown

I feel so so satisfied right now. That was really driving me up the wall.

[Joe the Rat]

For that matter, I would make any such one handed weapon that can be wielded two-handed gets a simple +2 damage bonus, including all such existing two handed weapons like spears and pole-arms (just for consistency, but make sure npc and monsters get the same bonus).

One caveat: +2 effectively makes a longsword wielded two-handed more dangerous than a two-handed sword - same peak, higher minimum damage (3!) and higher average(6.5). For this approach, I'd use a +1 instead.

[SmootRK]

But I suggest the +2 also applies to all such weapons, including 2-Handed swords. I might not have written that clearly (plus I am responding via iPhone right now so I try to be brief).

Rule: any melee weapon wielded 2 handed gets a +2 to damage (in addition to strength bonus if any).

[Dimirag]

Option 1: +2 to hit and damage for 1H weapons design to be use also as 2H weapons, other weapons gets -2TH and +2 damage.
Option 2: Treat each weapon separately and give them values for 1H and 2H, for ex: Bastard sword 1d8/1d10, the advantage is that it can be used on one hand accompanied with a shield or use it 2 handed, the weapons should be a little expensive.

[Steveman]

I allow longswords to be wielded two handed for +1 damage. That's it. Mostly because this is BASIC Fantasy RPG and I feel even the more advanced options should follow KISS as close as possible, and because a long sword and a bastard sword are both kinds of Arming Swords that come from different times and areas of historical Europe, and both are actually hand-and-a-half weapons.

[MedievalMan]

IF and I do mean IF, I were to change the rules at all (which I won't) I would allow +1 damage when wielding a weapon with two hands, as long as the weapon were medium or large size.

[Dimirag]

The lance does the same damage as a 1H missile than as a 1H melee weapon (1d6) and does one die higher when used two handed, so based on this can rule that when a 1H weapon used 2H (as permitted by the weapon) increase his damage die to the next value, so:

Sword------------Cost--Size-Weight-Damage
Bastard sword - 15GP - M ---- 7
--One Handed--------------------------- 1d8.
--Two Handed--------------------------- 1d10.

[SmootRK]

IF and I do mean IF, I were to change the rules at all (which I won't) I would allow +1 damage when wielding a weapon with two hands, as long as the weapon were medium or large size.

Essentially this, but I think I would do this based upon the Race of the wielder (more properly the size of race):
+1 damage for Small Characters using various weapons as 2-handed style. (halfling, gnome)
+2 damage for Medium Characters using 2-handed style. (human, dwarf, elf, 1/2 elf, 1/2 orc)
+3 damage for Larger Characters using 2-handed style (1/2 ogres)

otherwise, if one wanted a simpler rule, I would make the rule a simple +2 damage bonus (as previously stated). Applies to various monsters that use weapons as well.

I think this makes it a valid option for a character (fighter or otherwise) to choose to wield a weapon without the benefit of a shield, trading AC value for a reasonable increase in fighting power.

This is how I would do the weapons themselves

Code: Select all

Swords               cost  size   weight  damage
-----------------------------------------------
Shortsword/Cutlass     6gp  S       3     1d6
Longsword/Scimitar    10gp  M       4     1d8
Bastard Sword/Katana   ?gp  M       7     2d4
Two-Handed Sword      18gp  L      10     1d10

The 2d4 gives a small bell-curve of results meaning more likely to do median damage (in this case most likely 5 points of damage compared to the linear chance longsword getting average 4.5 damage). A slightly more consistent median damage result and a slightly higher minimum damage result.

Anyhow, just my own take on how these ought to be done