Two Topics

[MedievalMan]

Alright I was going to make a topic for each of these musings but I thought better of it and have decided to simply make a single post for both.

My first question is the inclusion of a 7th ability score, called Perception. I am going to include it as an optional rule in my camapign setting and was wondering what exactly it should modify and the like. I have a short list myself namely,

Finding secret doors
Surprise chance
Maybe some sort of general search mechanic (1 on 1d6 + Perception bonus?)
Maybe increase the percentage chance of a few Thief skills?

Pretty straightforward, just looking for some thoughts about its inclusion.


My second idea/question is a bit more weighty. My campaign setting does not have gods in the traditional D&D sense nor organized temples and the like. Thus I am hesitant to include Clerics int eh setting, they just don't fit the tone or themes. I am including Druids though since they DO fit both the tone and theme.

Anyway to make up for the lack of Cleric I was thinking about combining Cleric an Magic-User into a single "Magician" class. Furthermore I was thinking about utilizing some sort of colors of magic system where their are "white", "grey" and "black" spells. "White" magic would be more healing and defensive focused, "grey" magic would be more utilitarian, and "black" magic would be more offensive. Its a loose idea at this point and I was wondering whether or not anyone had seen anything like this before and/or if I am just wasting my time pondering it.

I am still very much on the fence about including some combined class but really can't find another way to include Cleric magic otherwise (Druids not withstanding).

[dymondy2k]

Here is my thoughts..

Topic #1. I honestly think you are over thinking alot of what makes BFRPG unique. Its supposed to have a classic RPG feel to it, but the more rules and features you add the less retro it feels. To me BFRPG is meant more to play in the 'theater of the mind', the more rules and things you add the more it becomes roll playing not role playing. I hope Solo doesn't chew my ass but have you looked at Myth and Magic? Its a retro clone based on 2nd ed AD&D and seems to have more of what you are wanting to do.

Topic #2. There was another thread on this very subject I believe. I would eliminate the cleric as a playable character altogether and eliminate the healing spells or allow your mages and other casters the ability to cast it.

Here is the thread on removing clerics.. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=450

I hope this post didn't come across as too harsh, I just think you are doing alot of work to add things back in that were intentionally removed in the first place.

[SmootRK]

Here is my thoughts..

Topic #1. I honestly think you are over thinking alot of what makes BFRPG unique. Its supposed to have a classic RPG feel to it, but the more rules and features you add the less retro it feels. To me BFRPG is meant more to play in the 'theater of the mind', the more rules and things you add the more it becomes roll playing not role playing.

I agree with what you are saying here.

And, despite being one of the people who tries to write a lot of material for BFRPG, if one looks closely, you will notice that the vast bulk of what I write is "more stuff" rather than changes to the mechanics. More races, more classes, more spells, more and different kinds of magic items. I have some personal changes to the mechanics, but even these are more tweaks and adjustments (changes to xp progression, modifications to the ability score bonus progression, etc) and not so much radical modifications of how the game works.

It is just my opinion, but BFRPG finds that sweet spot when it comes to rules/complexity/playability/ and ease of adding my own spin on things. House-rule tweaks are fine, addition of more 'stuff' is always a great thing, but I don't think the game itself needs major overhauls.

All that said, I agree that Clerics & Magic Users could be somehow combined and given to alternate 'schools'. In that thread, I speak of having white (includes healing), black (destructive/evil/contact with netherworld), gray (neutral, utilitarian, balanced), and brown/green (druid & nature centered) schools for the spellcasters. They use the same mechanic, but their spells are divided accordingly (and some removed altogether).

The elimination of Turning Undead is a nice secondary effect of this... undead become scary again.

[Dimirag]

Don't remember if was on a Dragon or a Dungeons magazine but in one of those it was included the Perception Optional Ability, lots of people* like it because it breaks the "wise = perceptive" thing and it modified the initiative dice (higher Nº = lower dice used).

To me old-school games are more about open and infinite choices limited only by the GM and the players mind. To me you can have 13 abilities scores (separating each ability as per the option in AD&D + perception) + mana magic system + others and it can still feel like and OSRPG as long as you don't create rules that slow playability, it only will change regarding to what OSRPG the game will feel/resemble the most.

* It was used also on a previous ed of M&M but was discarded because having 7 Abilities seem to be off the Old School feel.

So = Perception: Listen, initiative, search, surprise...
Note that if you use % bonus to Thieves Skills it can end being a class that relies on a variety of abilities...

Unifying Druids and Magic Users can be done if all "game-magic" are spiritual-natural in origin.
If theres only mana use only MU's, you can create different spell list based on schools.

You can see each magic using class as a training package, so, maybe the nature worshipers still train for combat wearing heavy armor and blunt weapons, maybe they only use non-metal armor and "nature" based weapons, or maybe they don't train to fight at all.

The spells are what powers they get from they worshiped force or what powers they learn to wield in order of being more effective on their duty.

So, once you know what kind of training they have and what powers they can wield you can see if there's the need of remove, twist, combine or create a class.

[MedievalMan]

Well perception was never in the game to begin with. And to be honest half the things I propose are simply ideas off the top of my head. I quit other games because of rules glut, but I chose BFRPG because it can handle addition. So why perception as a 7th ability is taking a hit I can't really fathom.

Thanks for the link, that will help with generating ideas at least.

[dymondy2k]

I guess I don't see the need because perception has always been seen as D20/3.5 skill. In BFRPG perception is already built into certain classes and races. We assume all the non perceptive thieves never made it to level 1.. what tra..agghhhh..

And Dimirag what I think makes the difference between an OSR an other newer games (D20/4e) is that OSR was always DM-centric. Alot of what happened in the game happened behind the DM screen. Where it seems the newer games depend more on the player having to assist the DM by rolling DC checks etc. I think the reason for this is because of the glut of rules and options in the newer games. Its almost impossible for a DM to manage the game alone when there are so many things he has to know. I bet you can easily run a BFRPG game using one of the available game masters screen and never hae to crack the rule book. When we play Pathfinder we are having to reference the rulebook constantly!

Anyways.. sorry for the derail.. carry on MM..

[MedievalMan]

No its cool. I never saw Perception as a skill, but I am sort of over it by now. I moved on to more positive things.

[Joe the Rat]

Closest I got if you want to tweak it:

High intelligence (15+) gives a +1 to hidden door searches. You could extend that basic idea to other searches (so I suppose that's a +5/+10% for thief skills?), and use other stats for comparable x in6 sense checks. (the 3.0 mentality seems to be Wis for notice, Int for looking). Having this a high stat modifier also lets your stupid, foolish thief be as competent at finding locks and traps, and hearing things as a reasonably intelligent thief, and a good thief does not require Wisdom high enough to suggest that they reconsider their line of work.

[Solomoriah]

The main issue I have with modern games and Perception is this: The GM describes the room. The player doesn't say "I search the nightstand" or "I look under the bed," he just rolls a die and says, "I made my Perception check. What did I find?"

Gah.

So long as the rules modify the results of the player's actions, that's fine. But cutting it down to just die rolling... not cool.

I modify my descriptions based on the stats and the stated actions of the player characters. Adding a stat doesn't really help with that. Also, I see no problem with tying perception to Wisdom, when dealing with the inanimate; when dealing with other characters, Charisma is the appropriate modifier (for the reasons I stated in the Bards thread).

[MedievalMan]

I was honestly just going to use perception as a bonus or penalty to searching for secret doors, IE the 1d6 chance, surprise checks, IE the 1d6 chance, and maybe listen checks for Thieves.