Discussing Introductory Modules from RPG Research

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rpgresearch
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Discussing Introductory Modules from RPG Research

Post by rpgresearch »

Solomoriah wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:50 pm As far as "proposing" your adventures... dude, I haven't turned much of anything down yet. Odds are kind of in your favor.

If you have more than 40 or so pages total, we'd probably publish them as a multimodule; if you have more than 40 in just the solos, I'd like to separate them and put them in their own book, but I'm agreeable to whatever approach you want. It's your baby, but if you submit them we'll give them our standard treatment, art, redrawn maps if needed, format standardization, covers, you name it.
I didn't want to hijack the discussion in the Manifesto thread, so I'm trying to move this part of the discussion to a separate thread. :)

The idea is to make the barrier to entry for introduction to RPGs for people with zero prior experience, and no one around them to help, learn incrementally through differential learning techniques in the story, rather than "massed learning" and reading through the rulebook, following research and evidence-in-practice approaches based on cognitive neuropsychology of learning and neurosciences principles.

We are also drawing from the RPG Ability Model shown here:

https://rpgresearch.com/rpg-ability-model
Image

Basically we want to "port" BECMI principles of learning RPGs to BFRPG. We have found that although the BECMI system has issues, their approach from beginner through to high level campaigns, is by far the most effective approach _ever published_ in RPGs that we can find anywhere. But the system is problematic, and there are no legal in-print options available. We're hoping BFRPG can be the vehicle to show the entire RPG industry the "right way" to design "Starter Sets" and "Introductory Boxes", because none of them have done so for _both_ player and GM. There have been some okay for players, like Call of Cthulhu 7th edition, but they fall flat after that, unfortunately. https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ctory_Play

The first SAM (Solo Adventure Module) is targeted for a play time average around 15-30 minutes for an average reader of 6th grade level, and can be read by average third graders or so (albeit much more slowly, and we encourage looking words up to grow vocabulary). It is mostly an interactive fiction (IF), but incrementally adds introduction to creating and using an attribute one at a time in story context. By the end of the first adventure, they have a basic understanding of their primary attributes and saving throws (or whatever term that might be changed to, resistance roles in Rolemaster, etc.). There is a smidgen of the most basic action and combat resolution concepts, elaborated more in the second SAM.

The second SAM is targeted for play time average around 60-90 minutes (if we can get it closer to the 15-45 minutes range eventually, that would be better). It is geared toward rounding out the knowledge of basic RPG principles for taking and resolving a variety of actions, as well as some helpful tips/tropes for TRPG adventuring. By the time they are finished with both SAMs, they should be fully ready to go adventuring in a GM 1:1 or group setting, knowing enough of the basics to play.

The third adventure, is assuming the GM has no prior RPG experience, and has only gone through the 2 SAMs. It is the "GM's First Adventure". It is intentionally highly railroaded for both the player and the GM. It wants the GM to just open the adventure, go through the "preparing for your first game" checklist and scheduling. Then once one or more players have arrived, begin playing within 5 minutes, with no prep work required. They can learn as they go, just as they did with the SAMs. It is filled heavily with "read this" boxes, and requires the players to be willing to play in a very railroaded way, supporting that the GM is trying this for the first time, so all working together to learn "how to do this GM thing", so a lot of the usual PC free agency will be limited initially, and there is a "social contract" that everyone in the session is okay with this approach for now. Over time it will expand (as per the RPG Ability Model), as everyone learns incrementally the basics. This adventure is targeted for a single session of 2-3 hours for game play from when the players sit down to when the adventure is complete. It is assuming the players have only been through the 2 SAMs, just like the GM, and no other foreknowledge.

The fourth adventure, "GM's Second Adventure", begins to loose up the railroad as it progresses, getting closer to "training wheels", beginning to offer the GM and players incrementally more freedom of ideas and approaches. This is also geared to be played in a single session of 2-3 hours.

By the time they have finished the 4 adventures, they will have "caught the bug" without being overwhelmed by the massed learning to take it to the next level. Now that the want more adventures, they are more intrinsically motivated to do the "hard work" of burrowing into the tomes of rules options and adventures before them. We are first testing these adventures with our training staff, then having them run the adventures in our community settings at the RPG Center and Spark Central. Then refine the adventures, and expand them to our other community, school, mobile facilities tours, online programs, etc.

We need to have the first draft of all of these working before our next batch of GM Trainees start around February 23rd or so. Then, as we always do, we'll iterate through many times, taking extensive observational notes for data, and the subjective feedback forms every session gets. Hopefully by summer or the end of the year we'll have all the bugs worked out.

That being said, I'm worried about making incorrect training decisions that aren't quite right for the BFRPG rules.
We run a LOT of different RPGs (I've been RPGing since '77), a few listed here: https://rpgresearch.com/drop-in-and-rpg, and all too often I jumble the different d20 rules variants (for example different variations in the rules about how many tasks you can do in a round, or initiative differences, or "attacks of opportunity" variations, disengaging from combat, etc.), including BFRPG. So I am hoping to be able to work with the BFRPG community, as we get the drafts closer, to make sure we don't screw up the rules lessons learned. We want, as will all our works, to have these freely and openly available to the public in both digital and (inexpensive) print options, which is also why we like BFRPG so much for our programs.

That being said, we do have some of our own house rules that will be incorporated for our training, but they will be clearly spelled out as such (and used as examples of how GMs can make their own house rules, that this is a normal thing for RPGs - which trips up a some boardgamers)). Previously I submitted our Accessible PC Sheet to BFRPG, and it was noted that only the version that conformed to the core rules was allowed in the repository, not our house rules modified version. For example, every RPG we run, we separate Charisma from Appearance, there are important psychological and learning ramifications in doing so, so we do so with every RPG. But these are little things, and it will be easy enough to strip out the house rules sections for a core rules compliant version when the time comes.

We've been niggling away at this for quite some time, but we must getting working versions of all 4 adventures before our next batch of GM volunteer trainees start their training around February 23rd.

So, any and all help on the best process to coordinate with you and the BFRPG community as a whole for such endeavors is greatly appreciated. Happy Gaming!
-Hawke
Our founder RPGing since 1977, we're a 501(c)3 non-profit research & human services charitable organization studying the effects of all RPG formats: tabletop, live-action, electronic, & hybrids. http://www.rpgresearch.com
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Re: Discussing Introductory Modules from RPG Research

Post by Dimirag »

As per your request of not hijack the thread I separate this into its own thing.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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Re: Discussing Introductory Modules from RPG Research

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Dimirag wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:03 pm As per your request of not hijack the thread I separate this into its own thing.
Thanks!
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Re: Discussing Introductory Modules from RPG Research

Post by Solomoriah »

Okay, so this needs to be a single book. That's fine. I understand where you are going with this now, and I'd love to help you.

Will you be doing layout, sourcing art, etc. or do you want us to do it? We have the skills and would be happy to help... the production team is idle right now while I plow through the Core Rules rewrite.

If it helps, there will be no mechanical changes nor any changes to terminology as far as I know right now. Spell names are subject to change, but most single-word names and two-word names made from common English terms will stand as is; the same goes for monsters. So you can use the 3rd Edition Core Rules as a basis and should have no problem with conversion.

I did not accept your character sheets that used house rules for what still seem to be logical reasons. However, I have absolutely no problem with house rules in your book, and you are welcome to submit a character sheet design to coordinate with the book. If we host it, we will put the character sheet with the book as an additional download (and possibly incorporate it into the book itself as well, for those who might buy the book without visiting the site).

Let me know how you want to proceed. I would be honored to be involved in this.
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Re: Discussing Introductory Modules from RPG Research

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Solomoriah wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:47 pm Okay, so this needs to be a single book. That's fine. I understand where you are going with this now, and I'd love to help you.
Actually, I was thinking they would be separate, one for each adventure, but all-in-one is fine too. Whatever is the best approach for supporting the BFRPG community, we don't have a requirement either way regarding one or separate, but probably for the print-on-demand options it would be most economical to offer 2 books. 1 for the SAMs, and one for the GM. Over time we could potentially put more SAMs and "First/Second/Third" GM Tutotial adventures to flesh out each to not be quite so small. So, writing out loud here, probably makes the most sense to be two books.

One for the players (initially everyone), and one for the to-be-GM. Does that make sense? For example, we often buy 3-6 copies of BFRPG printed books, including several copies of the rule book. We always prefer separating "player's book" from "GM's book", because we tend to buy one copy of the GM-needed books per table, but 3-6 copies of the player-needed books per table. For example, in one of our typical community setting with 5 tables, we would typically buy 5 GM guides, and 15-25 player manuals.

We have on our "to do" list trying to separate the BFRPG player rules from the GM rules into separate books to better fit our model, but it isn't as high a priority as the SAMs and GM intros right now. :-)

What do you think of the 2-book approach:
Book 1: Solo Adventure Modules for BFRPG (these aren't book titles, just descriptions :-) )
Book 2: Introductory Modules for the First Time GM of BFRPG (these aren't book titles, just descriptions :-) )

?
Solomoriah wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:47 pm Will you be doing layout, sourcing art, etc. or do you want us to do it? We have the skills and would be happy to help... the production team is idle right now while I plow through the Core Rules rewrite.
We'll do all of the initial drafting of content, maps, text, images, etc. In our Wiki environment, then export to .odt for submission for review/feedback from you and the BFRPG community.
We welcome any templates, help, etc on improving the layout to be consistent with your printing standards.
We will gladly release the content under the same full Attribution Creative Commons license, including the maps, artwork, etc. We have a number of artists on our staff that hopefully we can inspire to contribute.

Solomoriah wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:47 pm If it helps, there will be no mechanical changes nor any changes to terminology as far as I know right now. Spell names are subject to change, but most single-word names and two-word names made from common English terms will stand as is; the same goes for monsters. So you can use the 3rd Edition Core Rules as a basis and should have no problem with conversion.
That does help. I'm going to just go with using the current 3rd edition we have as I'm writing, and then as you nail down the licensing related changes, the closer we get to a February 20th published release date, we can refine any tweaks that you have stabilized for the 4.0. But we'll write about it as for the 4.0 version instead of 3.0.


Solomoriah wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:47 pm I did not accept your character sheets that used house rules for what still seem to be logical reasons. However, I have absolutely no problem with house rules in your book, and you are welcome to submit a character sheet design to coordinate with the book. If we host it, we will put the character sheet with the book as an additional download (and possibly incorporate it into the book itself as well, for those who might buy the book without visiting the site).
Definitely logical reason, not a problem. Just pointing out that we do things a little differently on our end. It would definitely help if we didn't have to make two versions of the book/books, as long as we clearly indicate which of our house rules deviate from the core rules every time (usually a box or icon like we do with Other Minds Magazine perhaps?). https://otherminds.net/

How does that sound to you? Any preference?
Solomoriah wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:47 pm Let me know how you want to proceed. I would be honored to be involved in this.
Wonderful! So glad to hear that.
You have a ton on your plate currently with the OGL ugliness, so I don't want to add to your overload too soon. I am currently rallying the troops on my end, and will be starting next week working frantically in the wiki on the branching narratives for the SAMs and the intro adventures. It will be a few weeks for me to crank on that first rough draft, and ping as it comes together.

Happy to continue any Q&A and guidance from you here, so I can share with the rest of our volunteer staff. But if you have anything you want to discuss offline, I did send you an email so we can converse there as well.

Excited to be working together on this!

Cheers!
-Hawke
Our founder RPGing since 1977, we're a 501(c)3 non-profit research & human services charitable organization studying the effects of all RPG formats: tabletop, live-action, electronic, & hybrids. http://www.rpgresearch.com
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Re: Discussing Introductory Modules from RPG Research

Post by Boggo »

Can I put in a quick comment on Solo adventures as a LOOOONG time T&T player (I remember when it was typewritten) The solo adventures will work best as single standalone adventure with enough rules in the book to play it, I can see an advantage to having a compilation of them as well, but having them available as individual books as well makes a gigantic step towards making them less intimidating to first timers

"Everything you need to play your first adventure!" on the cover is a good selling point as well
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Re: Discussing Introductory Modules from RPG Research

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I prefer a single book for just one reason... cost. One large book is cheaper than two small books that total to the same page count.

I'm not married to that idea, though. If two books works better for you, we do two books.

Here's the deal. If we put it out as an official Basic Fantasy Project document, it gets the standard layout using Soutane/Soutane Black titles and Century Gothic body font (unless you have requirements for something different, which I will respect). It gets a crenelated cover with color art, "Don't Buy This Book" on the back, the whole nine yards. But the content is yours, and I do not want to infringe on that. I have no degrees or research behind me, and no business telling you your business.

I do hope you think of better name(s). :D

We have pulled the adventure template document at the moment, until we nail down the license. I may be able to get something together for you before you are ready to pull stuff from your wiki... please keep me informed of your progress and I'll keep you in mind.
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Re: Discussing Introductory Modules from RPG Research

Post by Ka_Kshüshü »

rpgresearch wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:02 pm
So, any and all help on the best process to coordinate with you and the BFRPG community as a whole for such endeavors is greatly appreciated. Happy Gaming!
-Hawke
Hi Hawke, I'm a pediatric speech-language pathologist. I'd be interested in helping out with this project if I can. As an SLP I provide therapy for kids with communication disorders, including articulation of speech sounds, phonological disorders, expressive and receptive language disorders, social pragmatic communication disorders, autism, and stuttering. I also write fantasy fiction on the side as a hobby.

I was very excited when Critical Core was released, but I was disappointed when, after contacting them, I learned that they had never consulted anyone from my field.

I'm on the clinical side of things and don't work in research. Because of potential conflicts of interest I can't help out by trialing materials during my speech and language therapy sessions. But if there's any way I can help out please let me know.
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Re: Discussing Introductory Modules from RPG Research

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Ka_Kshüshü wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:33 pm
Hi Hawke, I'm a pediatric speech-language pathologist. I'd be interested in helping out with this project if I can. As an SLP I provide therapy for kids with communication disorders, including articulation of speech sounds, phonological disorders, expressive and receptive language disorders, social pragmatic communication disorders, autism, and stuttering. I also write fantasy fiction on the side as a hobby.
Wonderful! Of course we gladly welcome your help! We have always been huge advocates for accessibility, and very much appreciate the help of a diverse range of disciplines contributing to help make RPGs as accessible as possible. Including the Accessible BFRPG PC Sheet: https://basicfantasy.org/downloads/BFRP ... son-r2.pdf

In case you aren't already familiar with our history and endeavors, here is more information about us, if you'll pardon the interjection of information and extensive links to help learn about us):
RPG Research https://rpgresearch.com, a 501(c)3 non-profit research and human services charitable organization (100% volunteer-run).

This account is monitored by different volunteers, but currently you are interacting with the founder of RPG Research, Hawke Robinson (published under W.A. Hawkes-Robinson): https://www.hawkerobinson.com/. In addition to the research psychology and gaming background (since 1977), I am also a practicing therapist, with employees providing Applied Role-Playing Gaming and RPG Therapy services for decades, through RPG Therapeutics LLC https://rpg.llc/services/therapeutic, with a background in:
  • Compassion Focused Therapy (CFT)
  • and a range of neurosciences.
  • I also have a 40+ years in the computer sciences/information technologies industries which includes a lot of accessibility and user interface/experience (UI/UX). https://www.hawkenterprising.com/
In private practice https://rpg.llc/aboutus#Populations, community programs http://dropinandrpg.com/, and the research programs https://rpgresearch.com/knowledgebase, we work significantly with https://rpgresearch.com/populations Autism spectrum, a range of learning differences, and many neurodiverse populations from ages 2+ year old non-verbal through senior adults, and patients recovering from brain injuries, among many others.
Ka_Kshüshü wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:33 pm I was very excited when Critical Core was released, but I was disappointed when, after contacting them, I learned that they had never consulted anyone from my field.
They did provide the opportunity for feedback from anyone that supported their Kickstarter. Unfortunately we were too backlogged with other projects, so we weren't able to provide them with our (significantly lengthy) list of recommendations for accessibility improvements and other considerations in time for them to be able to incorporate such changes. Hopefully they will consider a revised or second edition version of their product(s) in the future and incorporate some of the suggestions they are receiving from professionals and community supporters. In the past (pre-2018) they were very receptive to make improvements based feedback from others, hopefully they are continuing such openness to improvement. :-)

We have a number of books of our own, long overdue, in the queue on these topics this year (in addition to the previous releases): For many years hundreds of researchers, practitioners, students, and professors have plead with us to try to organize our free and open archives of more than 10,000 content items on these topics into book formatted highlights to help them in their endeavors. We've been daunted by such a massive undertaking, especially as a 100% volunteer-run organization. These preview editions releasing in the coming months are going to be rough, but at least provide a starting point. With the eBooks we can iterate editing and pushing corrections. Then when cleaned up we can release the physical print editions of each. We also plan on Second Edition revisions based on reader feedback in the following year(s). This is in line with our iterative process. :-) Which also seems to be in line with the BFRPG model to some degree.

Ka_Kshüshü wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:33 pm I'm on the clinical side of things and don't work in research. Because of potential conflicts of interest I can't help out by trialing materials during my speech and language therapy sessions. But if there's any way I can help out please let me know.
We are very happy to get the extra eyeballs and peer review from multiple disciplines. We have a very opensource approach that is very much in line with the newer 2018 Open Science by Design approach, and welcome feedback. All of our endeavors are iterative, based on repeated and ongoing rounds of in-the-lab and field research programs, as well as evidence-in-practice across many different organizations and programs across 6 continents.

Thank you so much for offering to help, we are very grateful!

Happy Gaming!
-Hawke
Our founder RPGing since 1977, we're a 501(c)3 non-profit research & human services charitable organization studying the effects of all RPG formats: tabletop, live-action, electronic, & hybrids. http://www.rpgresearch.com
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Re: Discussing Introductory Modules from RPG Research

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Solomoriah wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:25 pm I prefer a single book for just one reason... cost. One large book is cheaper than two small books that total to the same page count.
We are big advocates for financial accessibility, especially since our community programs work with so many populations that struggle significantly with finances.
Solomoriah wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:25 pmI'm not married to that idea, though. If two books works better for you, we do two books.
In further conversations, we're getting good feedback that separating the player-only materials (SAMs) from the GM-only, is preferred by a number of GMs, especially those of us working with players that struggle with significant impulse control issues. They would find it easier to resist "cheating"and reading the GM adventures if in a separate book. Yes it is very easy for them to just download it and read them, but they indicate the "firewall" separating the two documents would help them resist more than if it was in the same book. And the GMs, due to how low the costs are for these small books, are okay with paying separately. Generally they would buy 1-3 of the player-focused printed copies, and have one of the GM-focused copies for themselves or other aspiring GMs.
I think, based on that feedback, and notably from some of our ADHD, incarcerated, and mental health players, that it is worth the slight additional cost for the GMs, to have them as two separate books, but no need to be more than that. If we, or the community want to add to the SAMs or GM Introductory adventures, it is recommended to just add them to one of the two appropriate books, rather than spin off many different ones. Thoughts?
Solomoriah wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:25 pmHere's the deal. If we put it out as an official Basic Fantasy Project document, it gets the standard layout using Soutane/Soutane Black titles and Century Gothic body font (unless you have requirements for something different, which I will respect). It gets a crenelated cover with color art, "Don't Buy This Book" on the back, the whole nine yards. But the content is yours, and I do not want to infringe on that. I have no degrees or research behind me, and no business telling you your business.
Excellent! I am very much an advocate of the opensource technology world, and love how BFRPG follows a similar model. We are very open and sharing of this kind of content, and we welcome your guidance and ideas. Again, kudos and thank you so much for all your hard work to have gotten this endeavor to such a well fleshed-out level of development and such a vibrantly engaged community!


Solomoriah wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:25 pmI do hope you think of better name(s). :D
As we near finalizing the adventures themselves, we'll gladly undertake the open suggestions polling approach for more imaginative names. Typically we start with a technically accurate working title while working on the project, and then as it solidifies and inspires more creative naming, we incorporate that into the titles. We welcome your suggestions for better titles when the time comes. :-)
Solomoriah wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:25 pmWe have pulled the adventure template document at the moment, until we nail down the license. I may be able to get something together for you before you are ready to pull stuff from your wiki... please keep me informed of your progress and I'll keep you in mind.
Will do! Thanks again!
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