Custom races and sub-races.

[SmootRK]

It seems like a really niche sort of project with very limited appeal... not sure it is worthy of too much work (at least by me). That said, I still like the idea of having some framework to apply to characters afflicted... after all these are very real threats in the game.

[xBlackWolfx]

the book does clearly state that a PC can be turned into a vampire, but it gives no details on how exactly this works.

[Solomoriah]

Honestly, I'm in favor of Gary's approach: A PC who becomes a vampire, or werewolf, or other "afflicted" species, should become an NPC until such time as the situation can be reversed. Reversal would, of course, require something like a miracle or a wish in these specific cases.

Doing it some other way makes it a different game. My opinion, of course.

[SmootRK]

Honestly, I'm in favor of Gary's approach: A PC who becomes a vampire, or werewolf, or other "afflicted" species, should become an NPC until such time as the situation can be reversed. Reversal would, of course, require something like a miracle or a wish in these specific cases.

Doing it some other way makes it a different game. My opinion, of course.

I am inclined to agree somewhat, and that is how I do it, but I can understand the appeal to have a framework that can be applied for a 'special' campaign or game where such fare is featured. Again, very limited niche, but probably appeals to many, otherwise there would not be entire Vampire/Werewolf oriented game lines, and a whole genre of books and movies.

I see no harm in anyone making something that works for them to use within the BFRPG framework.

[Joe the Rat]

First Rule of Vampiric Bite Club: You don't talk about Vampiric Bite Club.
Second Rule of Vampiric Bite Club: No Sparkles.

We've got two different approaches here: rules to handle affliction-as-gained (while playable), and rules to handle monster as player race/class. There are going to be some overlaps, but they differ somewhat in how we address (and assign) monstrous powers. Vampires-as-magic-usingly-delicious fits as a class, if you want to go with the ravenloft model. Becoming a vampire, or building as a race, should offer a suite of abilities independent of magic use.

So, we need:
- Details of conditions, as they could impact or be usable in play
- Ability growth (First, yes or no, Second, what progression)
- Upkeep (vampires require how much black man- er, must feed how often? Does this increase with level?)
- Restrictions
- Removal methods (how difficult depending on what role this character's condition plays in the game. A trait, a personal quest goal, a complication?

Something that may be needed alongside this is guidelines on how to handle the, ahem, behavioral influences resulting from having this kind of curse - some manner of saving throw or ability roll base, perhaps? I suppose in a way this skirts the PC/NPC aspect - you may call the shots most of the time, but occasionally things will happen you cannot control. Another angle is whether you should get better at control over time, or be more susceptible to its influences (reflecting a gain in mastery, or a growing curse moving you away from (demi)humanity). This depends on how you are playing the condition - as a set of class features, or as a curse.

I think Smoot's framework from March 14th is a good start for vampires. This could also work to reflect a slowly growing curse - either make it time-based, or increasing by level from their current level.

[Dimirag]

There are different approach to this:
1-A vampire can be treated as a pure race. Meaning a Warrior-Elf that becomes a Vamp looses any Elf racial benefits...
--A 6th Level Warrior-Elf becomes a 6HD Warrior-Vamp.
2-Being a Vamp is like a Class and replaces the one existing.
--The same 6th Level Warrior-Elf becomes a 1st Level Vampire-Elf.
3-Being a Vamp adds an extra Class.
--The same 6th Level Warrior-Elf becomes an Elf Warrior-Vampire 6/1
4-Vampirism is treated like an added decease that gains powers over time or experience.
--The same 6th Level Warrior-Elf becomes a 6th Level Warrior-El afflicted with Level 1 Vampirism.
5-He is treated like any other monster (no race/class benefits)...
--The same 6th Level Warrior-Elf becomes a 1HD Vamp.

After some thinking I like better the last option, vampirism mutates ones body (good bye racial treats) so its like a race (it's actually a race), but being a vamp doesn't lives time (even if you are eternal) to train in other classes, they "train" in how to be a better vamp.

Second choice of mine: Make it a race supplanting the original and giving small fixes benefits, after that the character can continue to train in his chosen class or choose the Vamp class (which could be a sub-monster class)

[SmootRK]

I think if I was to make vampires a campaign feature, I would stick to some method where they grow/earn their powers, this in addition to various skills they might have had previously. This gives a great degree of variability in the character types (which would be issue if multiple characters are vampires), by layering on vampirism upon their regular class features.

I have never played any of White Wolf's Vampire Games, but perhaps a quick look to see how the characters progress there might give some insight into how we might approach this.

[xBlackWolfx]

I do have a book for vampire, the requiem.

Vampires in the game are divided into several different 'clans' (sub-race is a more accurate description). each one has unique advantages and disadvantages, but other than that, characters are free to choose w/e abilities they want, its not a level-based class-based system like d&d, the only requirement for various abilities in the game is other abilities.

in the game, vampires arent nearly as impressive simply as a race, pretty much all they can do is drink blood (which gives them an energy called vitae which they then can spend on various abilities), and of course 'embrace' someone, the game's term for turning someone into a vampire.

as far as non-racial abilities goes, there is a rather diverse list. it includes everything from mind-controlling people to turning into animals, however, vampires mostly work like a normal human, with the same skills and everything. mostly all the game's about is interacting with npcs in vampire society.

it may not be such a good analogue, bc for one the game takes place in a contemporary (typically urban) setting, and besides that vampires are the only race available, other creatures (such as werewolves, mages, and 'promethean's) have their own seperate game, and the various races are not balanced against eachother (and whitewolf has typically worked on the assumption that players will all play supernatural creatures rather than normal humans, infact even though you can play a game in a mundane world with just the world of darkness book, they dont actually support doing that, they always assume you're also going to buy one of the various supernatural books of theirs). and really, white wolf games are typically far more about roleplaying than combat and dungeon-crawling, infact the rules for the game are mostly only explained in the world of darkness book, the book for vampire the requiem itself is mostly just an encyclopedia on vampire life and culture, very little of the book is actually devoted to telling you how to turn your human character into a vampire. infact, finding those rules is a bit of a challenge bc so few pages are devoted to them.

[Joe the Rat]

Well, there was The Dark Ages back in the VtM era, but that was also back before they decided to actually enforce the "no mixed party" rules, which led to some hilarious rock-paper-scissors-crinos-wizard kind of interplays... man those were the days. It was like a Dark Urban Fantasy version of Rifts, only with more dice and pretention. (The combat-heavy Werewolf games are/were probably the closest analog to traditional parties - they even have an aspect for each major class... plus Bard.)

The breakdown there comes in the way the powers are gained. It's a spend-as-you-go system, so you buy up your powers (and skills, and whatnot) as you gain the experience. If you wanted to borrow something like that, then you'd want to set up a growth chart for which standard abilities improve (from Smoot's example, going from bite/regen to level drain, possibly increasing other resistances at certain points), alongside points at which you can choose to raise certain abilities (gaining more shapechanging forms, stronger charm effects, improve or buy other "dark gifts," being able to buy off certain weaknesses, etc.) I would not go near the specific mechanics, though.

[SmootRK]

So, I guess it is apples vs oranges there.

However, since BFRPG (and its inspirational sources) are based upon Experience Points and Levels, I would be inclined (still) to the idea that powers and features gained via experience earned. It is the common commodity that all characters acquire to improve their ability.

I would propose that once a character is afflicted, they get a second XP tally. When they gain experience they split their xp between the base class and their Vampire Levels. The vampire levels should quickly come up to near the level of the original class because of the structure of the XP tables. Or, perhaps the XP is split 25% Base Class, 75% Vampire Levels until equilibrium is reached (when 50/50 split is applied, or a combined sum total for levels like true combo classes). This would be different than either true combo classes or quasi-classes... but similar enough to not be a real pain in figuring out.

Thoughts?