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Are there levels above 20?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:47 am
by Malfi
Hello everyone! First post here.
I have been perusing dnd osr clones for many years. I have been mainly running Pathifnder and 3.5 but I have also run a bunch of Dungeon Crawl Classics sessions. Still I keep looking for sth more close to original dnd.
I like what I am seeing in basic fantasy, there is sth minimalistic but nuanced about it.
Maybe I am weird because of the reference of other editions but I found it interesting you can't go above level 20, though I know in B/X max level is 14. I am pretty sure the wizard and fighter will never reach this level but the rogue and cleric might. Are there any rules or ideas for expanding the progression beyong level 20? I am not talking about further improving saves, I mean rules cyclopedia does but I propably wouldn't go that route. Maybe keep improving the attack bonus? At the very least Fighter would get extra weapon proficincies per Combat options and maybe thiefs would still increase skills and maybe certain improved uses or new skills would be available. I could also see cleric and wizards accumulating more slots though not higher spell levels.
I understand I will most certainly will never reach this levels, but I still would like for them to exist. Again maybe the rogue reaches 20 and then what? I know it is totally viable to say "you can improve any further you have reached the pinnacle of mortal abilities", but I don't want to do that.
As an aside are there any suitable monsters for higher levels? The only source, I have heard of, that fits basic fantasy for me is the b/x companion, ofcourse you can just yoink the demon lords/archdevils from adnd but those are unique creatures and maybe too dangerous.
As an extra aside after 375.000 xp the fighter and the rogue have the same attack bonus. Is that unbalancing? At very high levels a level 20 thief has 8 hp less than a 15 level fighter and better saves. Is that problematic or am I missing sth? I mean its an extremely minor issue, but still I am curious.
Thank you for reading and responding!
Re: Are there levels above 20?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:02 am
by Dimirag
As for levels 21 and beyond there is no supplement at the moment.
For monsters outside the core rulebook you have the 3 Field Guide books.
Re: Are there levels above 20?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:30 am
by Solomoriah
Malfi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:47 amI understand I will most certainly will never reach this levels, but I still would like for them to exist. Again maybe the rogue reaches 20 and then what? I know it is totally viable to say "you can improve any further you have reached the pinnacle of mortal abilities", but I don't want to do that.
Until you reach level 20, whether or not there is a level 21 is a mystery.
Literally never seen a character get above level 11 in any game in almost 40 years, excepting for those who were generated at those levels.
You have looked at the Field Guides, right?
Re: Are there levels above 20?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:34 pm
by teaman
And it gets REALLY hard to challenge players at very high levels in most versions of the game.
Maybe that's just me as a DM, but they tend to just plough through most of what I throw at them. Can't imagine trying to plan for a game above 20. I'm struggling at levels 12-15.
Re: Are there levels above 20?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:37 pm
by Dimirag
I am pretty sure the wizard and fighter will never reach this level but the rogue and cleric might. Are there any rules or ideas for expanding the progression beyong level 20? I am not talking about further improving saves, I mean rules cyclopedia does but I propably wouldn't go that route. Maybe keep improving the attack bonus? At the very least Fighter would get extra weapon proficincies per Combat options and maybe thiefs would still increase skills and maybe certain improved uses or new skills would be available. I could also see cleric and wizards accumulating more slots though not higher spell levels.
It really depends on what kind of game you want it to be after level 20, that would put the base for the XP value of each level. Should it be double XP like for the first 9 levels or increase in the same amount as previous levels? Should it be a new value?
If you base it on just level numbers, due to the difference on XP the thief will always reach the new level before other classes, and when a class hits the new max level you find again the "what's next?" scenario.
Attack bonuses do not increase linearly, so its a matter of choice and taste how the new rate should be.
Giving the Fighter more "weapon proficiencies" work as long as that optional rule is used
Increasing the thieving skills percentage by 1% per level can be done, at level 40 he will have a 99% on 6/7 skills.
Spell slots and the turning undead table can be extended, spell slots also do not increase linearly, so the AB point remains here; by level 27 the cleric would do autodamage to any undead (maybe a HD limit could come handy here)
Maybe you could put somekind of "Epic Level" reached at the same XP for every single class with a high enough value that it cames into play after the Magic User has been level 20 for quite some time (something like 4000000 for single-classed and double for dual-classed)
Options and possibilities are almost limitless but they are bound to each person's view or ideas of what those levels should bring.
Re: Are there levels above 20?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:49 pm
by SmootRK
I have houserules that cover ever increasing levels... but I utilize a different XP/level system that goes along with the expanded levels.
I saw no problem with continuing progressions beyond 20... though I do suggest the XP progression be quite expensive. Few characters in a given world/campaign should go very many levels beyond twenty, ever.
Re: Are there levels above 20?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:22 pm
by Malfi
Dimirag wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:02 am
As for levels 21 and beyond there is no supplement at the moment.
For monsters outside the core rulebook you have the 3 Field Guide books.
I gave a very cursory look at the first two field guides but the highest hd I saw was 14 or so.
Re: Are there levels above 20?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:27 pm
by Malfi
Solomoriah wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:30 am
Malfi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:47 amI understand I will most certainly will never reach this levels, but I still would like for them to exist. Again maybe the rogue reaches 20 and then what? I know it is totally viable to say "you can improve any further you have reached the pinnacle of mortal abilities", but I don't want to do that.
Until you reach level 20, whether or not there is a level 21 is a mystery.
Literally never seen a character get above level 11 in any game in almost 40 years, excepting for those who were generated at those levels.
You have looked at the Field Guides, right?
Understood, it my experience too that 11 levels gained is the end of a camaign. I must have seen around 4 campaigns in dnd3.5/pathfinder that went from starting level 4-5 to level 15-16.
As mentioned above I gave the first 2 field guides a cursory look, highest hd I have seen is 15 I think which is nothing to sneeze at ofcourse.
Re: Are there levels above 20?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:44 pm
by Malfi
teaman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:34 pm
And it gets REALLY hard to challenge players at very high levels in most versions of the game.
Maybe that's just me as a DM, but they tend to just plough through most of what I throw at them. Can't imagine trying to plan for a game above 20. I'm struggling at levels 12-15.
My real problem is that it can break the credibility of the world.
If very high level characters exist and nothing can challenge them, why don't they defacto rule the world? If monsters or whatever can challenge them, then you need high level characters for the setting to make sense.
You can get around this with certain in world explanations, but it always stresses the limits of the setting further and further and thus may diminish anything that happens in a smaller scale.
Re: Are there levels above 20?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:45 pm
by Malfi
Malfi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:44 pm
teaman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:34 pm
And it gets REALLY hard to challenge players at very high levels in most versions of the game.
Maybe that's just me as a DM, but they tend to just plough through most of what I throw at them. Can't imagine trying to plan for a game above 20. I'm struggling at levels 12-15.
My real problem is that it can break the credibility of the world.
If very high level characters exist and nothing can challenge them, why don't they defacto rule the world? If monsters or whatever can challenge them, then you need high level characters for the setting to make sense.
You can get around this with certain in-world explanations, but it always stresses the limits of the setting and thus may diminish anything that happens in a smaller scale.