Are there levels above 20?

[Malfi]

I am pretty sure the wizard and fighter will never reach this level but the rogue and cleric might. Are there any rules or ideas for expanding the progression beyong level 20? I am not talking about further improving saves, I mean rules cyclopedia does but I propably wouldn't go that route. Maybe keep improving the attack bonus? At the very least Fighter would get extra weapon proficincies per Combat options and maybe thiefs would still increase skills and maybe certain improved uses or new skills would be available. I could also see cleric and wizards accumulating more slots though not higher spell levels.

It really depends on what kind of game you want it to be after level 20, that would put the base for the XP value of each level. Should it be double XP like for the first 9 levels or increase in the same amount as previous levels? Should it be a new value?

I think it should remain the same.

If you base it on just level numbers, due to the difference on XP the thief will always reach the new level before other classes, and when a class hits the new max level you find again the "what's next?" scenario.

In that case I would rather there be an xp limit then than a level limit.

Attack bonuses do not increase linearly, so its a matter of choice and taste how the new rate should be.
Giving the Fighter more "weapon proficiencies" work as long as that optional rule is used
Increasing the thieving skills percentage by 1% per level can be done, at level 40 he will have a 99% on 6/7 skills.
Spell slots and the turning undead table can be extended, spell slots also do not increase linearly, so the AB point remains here; by level 27 the cleric would do autodamage to any undead (maybe a HD limit could come handy here)

I would propably the slowest possible progression, since I would keep the same rate of xp per level needed.
Thieving skills could also increase by 10% total per level, which would necessitate more thief skills, or allowing higher than 99% percentages and pehaps even advanced skill uses for already existing skills albeit with a penalty.
For the cleric and the wizard I could see using sth close to the rules cyclopedia cleric one minus one level.

Maybe you could put somekind of "Epic Level" reached at the same XP for every single class with a high enough value that it cames into play after the Magic User has been level 20 for quite some time (something like 4000000 for single-classed and double for dual-classed)

You mean like an epic progression?

Options and possibilities are almost limitless but they are bound to each person's view or ideas of what those levels should bring.

Yes also to the reality of the setting, as I mention on a post above, if there nothing to challenge the heroes then there is no point to higher levels.

[Malfi]

I have houserules that cover ever increasing levels... but I utilize a different XP/level system that goes along with the expanded levels.

I saw no problem with continuing progressions beyond 20... though I do suggest the XP progression be quite expensive. Few characters in a given world/campaign should go very many levels beyond twenty, ever.

I have read your houserules. I think I like them. Saves remain the same after level 20 yes?
Also would it be wrong to extend class tier beyond 9?

[Dimirag]

I gave a very cursory look at the first two field guides but the highest hd I saw was 14 or so.

Don't rely solely on HD, although it indicates several abilities, monsters with low HD can be really dangerous due to special abilities and appearance numbers.

I think it should remain the same.

I think it should depend on the overall benefits of the earned level, remaining the same means that when the MU is level 20 the thief would be like level 25, doing double really puts them closer.

In that case I would rather there be an xp limit then than a level limit.

You can easily put an XP ceiling and extend each class levels up to that value having different classes end at different levels which is nothing unheard of...

I would propably the slowest possible progression, since I would keep the same rate of xp per level needed.
Thieving skills could also increase by 10% total per level, which would necessitate more thief skills, or allowing higher than 99% percentages and pehaps even advanced skill uses for already existing skills albeit with a penalty.
For the cleric and the wizard I could see using sth close to the rules cyclopedia cleric one minus one level.

Increasing thieving skills by 10 points is a whoopping increment, skills at final levels increase 1-3% unless you mean 10 points among the skills as in levels 16-20. Doing 5 per level is a doable thing.

You mean like an epic progression?

Not a progression, a one-time thing, you reach that XP you get a benefit, similar to how demihumans work on some other games, but if you want to create a progression, each with its own benefit or a list to choose from, its also doable.

[GrimlinJoe]

Though I know this isn't necessarily and answer to what you are asking but something a friend of mine does in his games that he DMs is once that character hits max level he allows a prestige system where the play is allowed to start back over at lvl 1 and gain a few points to put into their stats to raise them up alittle. This does create a grind complex to the game but its an interesting concept.

Another option is once you reach max level, if you haven't employed the quasi-classes into you campaign then once you hit max level you can choose a quasi-class to begin leveling in somewhat like a master class/profession

[Malfi]

Don't rely solely on HD, although it indicates several abilities, monsters with low HD can be really dangerous due to special abilities and appearance numbers.

I agree, but I simply didn't want to invest the time to check this. It quite possible I will do so in the future.

I think it should depend on the overall benefits of the earned level, remaining the same means that when the MU is level 20 the thief would be like level 25, doing double really puts them closer.

Agreed, I felt the benefits i mentioned were incremental enough to not go with any doubling. Also doubling xp per level is basically saying you can't level up. I could see doubling xp once at level 21 and then keeping them the same as in Smoots houserules.
Regarding the thief and magic user, I am not sure they are supposed to be close. A level 20 thief has around the same xp as a level 14 magic user. A level 30 thief the same as a level 18 magic user.

Sigh* I lost my next responses will write them again later I guess.

[Dimirag]

Yes, those numbers are close enough, I said about bring them closer as to brake the different rates at which each class reaches the level ceiling.
If using the same progression as of level 9+ at the moment the MU hits level 20 the Thief would be level 35, when the Thief reaches level 40 the MU will be Level 33.
I would use either a new derived value, like 50% of the increment or other percentage, or just an arbitrary or more balanced number.

Edit: I tried using the same progression as for levels 9+ with the 20th level xp value, yes, it means level 21 is double XP, but makes a 20th level MU equal to a 21st level Thief, after that the Thief is obviously ahead, but not as much, but, when the Thief reaches level 40 the MU is less than 5% close to reach 30th Level.
The number does not mean much, its a matter of how close one wants them to level up.

[Seven]

My real problem is that it can break the credibility of the world.
If very high level characters exist and nothing can challenge them, why don't they defacto rule the world? If monsters or whatever can challenge them, then you need high level characters for the setting to make sense.
You can get around this with certain in world explanations, but it always stresses the limits of the setting further and further and thus may diminish anything that happens in a smaller scale.

I find that it's the other way around that breaks the credibility of the world.
Having creatures with huge HD wandering around is not a good idea.
Those creatures would just wander around and destroy everything.
That always happen in games like Elder's Scrolls or Fallout where the mobs levels with the PC.
The towns get overrun and the key NPCs get slaughtered.
In all the games I played, it's not the level per say that determine the strength of a character but the items he accumulates and if you let everyone know you have powerful items, it becomes a game of king of the mountain and it's soon time to start over with a new character.

Also, I cannot imagine characters reaching level 20 in a weekly game.
Lenard Lakofka mentioned that he would run into those level 20 characters at gaming conventions and told them that obviously they're not counting XP and just levelling after each sessions.

[Malfi]

Increasing thieving skills by 10 points is a whoopping increment, skills at final levels increase 1-3% unless you mean 10 points among the skills as in levels 16-20. Doing 5 per level is a doable thing.

Yes I meant increasing 10 points among the skills as in level 16-20.

Not a progression, a one-time thing, you reach that XP you get a benefit, similar to how demihumans work on some other games, but if you want to create a progression, each with its own benefit or a list to choose from, its also doable.

It fits the world where only the ones who keep pushing their mortal limits can then go beyond them.
Do you have any examples in mind?

[Malfi]

Yes, those numbers are close enough, I said about bring them closer as to brake the different rates at which each class reaches the level ceiling.
If using the same progression as of level 9+ at the moment the MU hits level 20 the Thief would be level 35, when the Thief reaches level 40 the MU will be Level 33.

I think you have sth wrong or I am misunderstanding sth.
MU 20 Thief 35 seems to follow the table.
MU 33 Thief 40 doesn't seem to follow the table.

I would use either a new derived value, like 50% of the increment or other percentage, or just an arbitrary or more balanced number.

Edit: I tried using the same progression as for levels 9+ with the 20th level xp value, yes, it means level 21 is double XP, but makes a 20th level MU equal to a 21st level Thief, after that the Thief is obviously ahead, but not as much, but, when the Thief reaches level 40 the MU is less than 5% close to reach 30th Level.
The number does not mean much, its a matter of how close one wants them to level up.

Again I am confused, I meant doubling required xp after level 20. This certainly doesn't make a 20th level MU equal to 21st level Thief, which I think would be unbalanced and unfair to thief, if anything in the game is.

On a mildly related note. This max level business is a small but real pet pieve of mine. I actually don't mind it in basic fantasy, but the exact same thing happened in 2nd edition high level Dm options where the max level is 30 for both the thief and the wizard and also happens in castles and crusade where the max level is 24, again, for everyone. No one seems to use a max value for xp.

[Malfi]

Though I know this isn't necessarily and answer to what you are asking but something a friend of mine does in his games that he DMs is once that character hits max level he allows a prestige system where the play is allowed to start back over at lvl 1 and gain a few points to put into their stats to raise them up alittle. This does create a grind complex to the game but its an interesting concept.

Another option is once you reach max level, if you haven't employed the quasi-classes into you campaign then once you hit max level you can choose a quasi-class to begin leveling in somewhat like a master class/profession

The first solution is kinda weird to me. The second one seems pretty elegant though I haven't read much about quasi classes.