Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

Update: 2-2-2012
I was reading the 2nd Edition to 3.0 rules conversion guide, found out thieve's get so many skills due to their thieving skills becoming actual skills vs a class feature. So I pulled the crazy skill bonus that thieve's would get.

Dice Rolling, House Rule:
4d6, reroll 1's; keep high 3

OR

Point Buy:
81 Points to be split between stats.

Multiple Attacks
Rules:
Once BAB hits 6, second attack is +1, begins as if second (and subsequent attacks are at level 1)

Fighter
1st 2nd 2nd 3rd 3rd
Attack Attack Attack Attack Attack
Level Bonus Level Bonus Level Bonus
1 1
2 2
3 2
4 3
5 4
6 4
7 5
8 6 1 1
9 6 2 2
10 6 3 2
11 7 4 3
12 7 5 4
13 8 6 4
14 8 7 5
15 8 8 6 1 1
16 9 9 6 2 2
17 9 10 6 3 2
18 10 11 7 4 3
19 10 12 7 5 4
20 10 13 8 6 4

Dice Rolling:
4d6, reroll 1's; keep high 3

OR

Point Buy:
81 Points to be split between stats.

Hit Points:
Start with MAX HP at level 1.
Level 2, start with 75% (round up)
Level 3+, average (since die's are split in middle, start with high average, then low average next level)
Example 1d6 Avergare is 3.5, Level 3 is 4 HP, level 4 is 3 HP.

New Combo Class:
Halfling: Fighter/Thief
Dwarf: Fighter/Cleric



Proposing:
Fighter/Magic-User: Magus
Fighter/Cleric: Paladin (Dwarf's?)
Fighter/Thief: ?
Magic-User/Thief: Bard
Magic-User/Cleric: ?

Attack Bonus, Cumulative for combination classes
Skip second class level 1 BAB bonus, otherwise balance is thrown off.
Fighter Cleric Magic- Total
/Thief User Monster BAB BAB
NM 0 0
1 1 1 1 +1 1
2 3 4 2 +1 2
4 5 6 3 +1 3
5 7 9 4 +1 4
7 9 13 5 +1 5
8 12 16 6 +1 6
11 15 19 7 +1 7
13 18 8 +1 8
16 10 +1 9
18 12 +1 10
14 +1 11
16 +1 12
20 +1 13
24 +1 14
28 +1 15
32 +1 16

D20 Saves
Death Ray = Dodge
Poison = Fortitude
Magic Wand = Depends on Wand types (see Spells) or Dodge
Paralyzation/Petrification = Fortitude
Dragon Breath = Dodge
Spells = Depends on spell effect, try to fit to above.
A saving throw against your spell has a
DC of 10 + the level of the spell + relevant ability score bonus

Differences are: old saves are attack based, new saves are defense based.

Cleric Fighter Magic-User Thief
Level Fort Ref Will Fort Ref Will Fort Ref Will Fort Ref Will
1 2 0 2 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 2 0
2 3 0 3 3 0 0 0 0 3 0 3 0
3 3 1 3 3 0 1 1 1 3 1 3 1
4 4 1 4 4 1 1 1 1 4 1 4 1
5 4 1 4 4 1 1 1 1 4 1 4 1
6 5 2 5 5 1 2 2 2 5 2 5 2
7 5 2 5 5 2 2 2 2 5 2 5 2
8 6 2 6 6 2 2 2 2 6 2 6 2
9 6 3 6 6 2 3 3 3 6 3 6 3
10 7 3 7 7 3 3 3 3 7 3 7 3
11 7 3 7 7 3 3 3 3 7 3 7 3
12 8 4 8 8 3 4 4 4 8 4 8 4
13 8 4 8 8 4 4 4 4 8 4 8 4
14 9 4 9 9 4 4 4 4 9 4 9 4
15 9 5 9 9 4 5 5 5 9 5 9 5
16 10 5 10 10 5 5 5 5 10 5 10 5
17 10 5 10 10 5 5 5 5 10 5 10 5
18 11 6 11 11 5 6 6 6 11 6 11 6
19 11 6 11 11 6 6 6 6 11 6 11 6
20 12 6 12 12 6 6 6 6 12 6 12 6

CON bonus applied to Fortitude saves
DEX bonus applied to Reflex saves
WIS bonus applied to Will saves

Initiative:
1d6 + Dex for players
1d6 + Number of attacks (over 1) for monsters (possibly 1d8)

Armor/Arcane (Magic-User) Spell Failure
Armor Penalties
Leather Armor 10%
Chain Mail 20%
Full Plate 35%

Mithril reduces Arcane Spell Failure by 10%

Fighter/Magic-User:
Level 5: -5%
Level 10: -10%
Level 15: -15% (minimum of 1%)
Level 17: -20% (minimum of 1%)
Level 20: -25% (minimum of 1%)

Damage Protection for players/monsters, option
Defense: Roll vs Defense to hit vs AC, this is the dodging ability.
Damage Protection (DP): Subtract this much from damage before applying damage.

Players:
Defense = 10 + Shield Bonus + Dex Mod + other modifier's
(including Armor's Enhancement bonus)
Damage Protection (DP) = Armor Bonus + Enchantments + 1/5 Levels

Armor DP
Leather 2
Chain 4
Plate Mail 6

Monsters:
Since 11 is unarmored for PC's, any AC above 11 for creatures is due armor/dex bonus, so my formula just splits that bonus down the middle w preference towards dex (i.e. Defense)

AC - 11 = (a + b)
A and B should be equal, if unequal, uneven goes to A

Defense = 11 + A
DP = B + 1/5 HD

Example, AC is 20, HD is 10
20 - 11 = 9; A = 5, B = 4
10HD/5 = 2
Defense = 16 (11 + A)
DP = 6 (1/5 HD + B)

Optional:
Since HD is used as a measure of Hit Points and Toughness in the old rules, it's an option to halve any HD over 8, round up.
Example: 12 HD would now be 10 HD. 20 HD would now be 15 HD.
If doing so, apply Damage Protection (1/5 HD) formula after the HD loss.

Reasoning: A Golem has a high HD due to it's nature of being made from tough material. Yet Giving it a Damage Protection and High Hit Points is redundant. It only needs High Damage Protection.

Attack Bonus is now given from the Dex Bonus, and not Strength Bonus for Melee Attacks
Strength is used if a hit is trying to get through Armor, now a hit is trying to get around dodge ability, so Dex comes into play more.
Strength still gives Damage bonus.
This means dex is used for both melee/ranged attack bonus.

Review: Gives too much power to Dex, since it's now for AC/Combat. Maybe make it for pointy weapons (would make the game a bit harder to keep track of).

Skills

Armor Penalties
Leather Armor -0
Chain Mail -5
Full Plate -6

Mithril reduces Penalty by 2.

Base DV: 17 (GM adjusts on his discretion)

Skill Cleric Fighter Thief Magic-User Ability Armor Pen
Acrobatics — — C — Dex 1
Appraise C — C C Int
Bluff — — C — Cha
Climb — C C — Str 1
Craft C C C C Int
Diplomacy C — C — Cha
Disable Device — — C — Dex 1
Disguise — — C — Cha
Escape Artist — — C — Dex 1
Fly — — — C Dex 1
Handle Animal — C — — Cha
Heal C — — — Wis
Intimidate — C C — Cha
Knowledge (arcana) C — — C Int
Knowledge (dungeoneering) — C C C Int
Knowledge (engineering) — C — C Int
Knowledge (geography) — — — C Int
Knowledge (history) C — — C Int
Knowledge (local) — — C C Int
Knowledge (nature) — — — C Int
Knowledge (nobility) C — — C Int
Knowledge (planes) C — — C Int
Knowledge (religion) C — — C Int
Linguistics C — C C Int
Perception — — C — Wis
Perform — — C — Cha
Profession C C C C Wis
Ride — C — — Dex 1
Sense Motive C — C — Wis
Sleight of Hand — — C — Dex 1
Spellcraft C — — C Int
Stealth — — C — Dex 1
Survival — C — — Wis
Swim — C C — Str 1
Use Magic Device — — C — Cha

C = Class Skill; 1 = Armor check penalty applies

Formula:
Class Skill Bonus (+3) + Stat Bonus + 1/2 Level - Armor Penalty

Prior to update; below................................................................................

I was thinking along the lines of a standard exp table and implementing basic skill checks (no skill points alloted, just half of level). What you guys think? I think pathfinder had to beef up some weaker classes when they got everyone on board with the same exp table. However, I think if one used the Magic User as the base table, and mapped existing classes to that Table using the original classes point of progression (i.e. what level would the old class be at if it was mapped to the magic user table).

I see some problems with a level 20 magic user, and a Cleric who has the same exp is going to be about 5 levels higher than the mage at the same exp, which means some class balancing would need to be done, and it might be more work than it's worth.

Example:
Map all existing levels with the magic-user level progression (A variant idea is to average out all experiences between classes, and create a new table, and map that table to old exp-level's per class)

Thief
Exp.
Level Points Hit Dice New Notes
1 0 1d4
2 1,250 2d4 1
3 2,500 3d4 2
4 5,000 4d4 3
5 10,000 5d4 4
6 20,000 6d4 5
7 40,000 7d4 6
8 75,000 8d4 7
9 150,000 9d4 8
10 225,000 9d4+2 Skip
11 300,000 9d4+4 9
12 375,000 9d4+6 Skip
13 450,000 9d4+8 10
14 525,000 9d4+10 Skip
15 600,000 9d4+12 11
16 675,000 9d4+14 Skip
17 750,000 9d4+16 12
18 825,000 9d4+18 Skip
19 900,000 9d4+20 13
20 975,000 9d4+22 Skip
21 1,050,000 9d4+24 14 (Adds +9 to +10 thieving skill points), nothing can be 100%


This creates two issues I saw:

One. Starting Classes such as Cleric/Thief are going to start with higher stats (i.e. 2 hit dice for both a cleric/thief at new described "level 1") than a level 1 Magic-User or Fighter.. However, this will balance itself in the end.

This could be fixed by starting everyone as the same experience as a level 3 Magic User. So now a Thief would be starting at level 4 (new level 3).

The other problem is, certain classes will max out at lower levels (i.e. only the Magic-User) will be able to progress to stated level 20 (even though with the above table, a "New Level 13" Thief is the same as a level 20 Magic-User. A new table would have to be created for the classes wishing to seek a new level 20 zone.

This could be solved by capping levels to say level 13 (Magic User gets to cast level 6 Spells at this level).

combining the two concepts together, one could have a new level chart depicting levels 3-13, remapped, they would be levels 1-10.

I was thinking of not standardizing the classes, but recording seperate exp for both classes and using a BAB increase system like they have in 3.5. Seems to be the easiest, and gains the attack bonus' of both classes.

The attack bonus is not linear in any of the classes in BFRPG. It would be difficult to achieve without a complete reworking of all classes.

I used to think like you about how to make things rather systematic, but now I feel like the quirks of BFRPG's unique take on combo-classing gives it a flavor all its own. If you have a character concept that needs to be created, take a look at some of the supplemental materials or consider just making a new class to achieve your ends.

For your Thief MU, (which I think is one of the better working combo-classes anyhow), perhaps you might consider making a Charlatan Class:
MU XP Table, d4 Hit Die, Spell Progression as Cleric (meaning no spells at first level, and about a level behind standard MU), MU weapons plus Short Sword (perhaps others too). No Armor. Thief/Cleric Attacks. Thief Abilities of Pick Pocket, Hide, Move Silent, Listen. No Backstab. Spell list taken from various sources with focus on Charms, Illusions, Movement.

Anyhow, thats how I would approach it if I was dis-satisfied with how the Combo-Class option.

The rules are just guidelines, and you should feel free to tweak to suit your own take on the game. I just think that big overhauls are not really necessary to achieve the ends that most people have in mind. Simple solutions can work just fine and keep the game intact in most ways.

I got an answer for the saves, and attack bonus.

Attack bonus's are now cumulative. I just wrote in how much each level gained over the prior level.

Same with saves. Start with best save for each category, and modify using a cumulative effect for each class gained per level. I.e. say a thief goes from 15 to 14, then that's a cumulative -1 for that category of save, that is applied. Same goes if a Fighter would have gotten a bonus that round (assuming a Fighter/Thief combo).

I gave up on standardizing the level tables (I only wanted to do it for multi-classing). I just figured I'd modify how the multi-classing works. I like the original multi-classing described in BFRPG, but I incorporated cumulative bonus for Attack and Saves.

Deleted and inserted into top post

Balance! Keep in mind that levels and XP have a different relationship - it's bad form for a mixed class character to outperform his monoclass compatriots in their core areas. What you've got here is a character that will be tougher - and generally a better fighter at lower levels, with the rest catching up in higher levels.

One thing to consider on a multiclassing rebuild is that XP is roughly geometric - up to 9th level, someone with half the earned XP will be about 1 level behind someone else in the same class, so a 2-class character would then be about one level behind a straight class character in their most expensive class. A 3/3 getting 6 mixed HD, and pooled bonuses for two classes puts him a solid 2 levels ahead of his monoclass counterparts in everything except class skills.

Intermediate editions went with the "best to-hit" (along with "best of either class, except split the hit points") route. Arguably, you could take this line as well - if either class gets a bonus to BAB, saves, etc, that character gets a bonus (and take the best HD)- the offset being you're about a point of bonus behind your best for a monoclass with comparable XP - and a HD behind. This is a reasonable (and possibly generous) trade-off for added versatility... up to 9th level.

This is where it gets trickier.

After 9th, level advancement is linear, meaning that 2-class characters are advancing at roughly 1/2 speed. By the time a straight-line MU or Fighter maxes out (20) all of the related 2-class mixes with the same XP will be around 15 (F/M-U actually comes in at 14). Pooling bonuses would put them on par again in terms of BAB & saves, but this still leaves the issues of HD (or at this point, hp bonuses - pooled HD maxes out your HD at level 5!), better-than-otherwise-possible saves, and lag in other abilities.

If you take the best-of approach instead, you have to deal with the significantly slower advancement. Rather than change the bonus approach to keep abreast, alter the level rates: after 9th level, the XP total for the multi-class character is the same as 2 levels higher in their most expensive track. The shift at level 10 will be more expensive for some, cheaper for others, but it puts them at a reasonable gap without falling too far behind. This could be fiddled with a bit.

This is all assuming lock-step advancement between the combined classes (both classes go up). You could probably use a staggered gains system, giving you the old 3/4 fighter/thief listings (as opposed to a level 3 fighter/thief). None of this addresses adding or changing classes.

---

Switching armor from a deflection type effect (AC) to a damage mitigation effect (DR) is a stab (heh) towards realism, but you may want to consider splitting the armor bonus between the two. Plate mail is basically a series of small metal shields strapped over the body, and half its job is deflection. Even if you don't go this way, I'd look at adding magic bonuses to the AC as well as DR - and I do mean look at it - it may overbalance, or it may be the right counter to weapon enchantments lending both hit and damage bonuses. check the d20 SRD for some ideas on how to split it.

Even with this swap, I'd be wary of making Dex the 'to-hit' bonus for melee and ranged as the default. Combined with AC/defense, it rapidly becomes the One Stat for Combat. One way to look at the Str 'to-hit' is that the bonuses is not just having the muscle to give your swing more power (better penetration) but it also gives you speed (harder to dodge/block/parry). "Finesse"-style melee does have it's place as well - it's about speed and accuracy. You need to decide if you want your fighters to go more for the big bruiser or the agile swashbuckler - or set rules to allow each. It may take a special "stunt" to allow it, or it may only be applied to specific weapon types (really, there is only so much finesse one can put behind a 15-pound mallet).

---

Am I reading that right that everyone besides thieves get bonus skill points only at level 20?

I agree that a lvl 3 fighter/mage will outperform a lvl 3 fighter. But what I'm looking at it from is a lvl 3 fighter/mage will probably be travelling w a lvl 7 fighter, who will outperform a lvl 3 fighter/mage. I'm trying to match experience between players w matching skill.

A good example would b to compare a fighter and a fighter/mage w
5000 xp, 10k xp, 25k xp, 50k xp, and 125k xp. Not to look at levels, unless u realize a lvl 3 fighter/mage is a lvl 6 player (3 lvls in each class) and a lvl 6 fighter will be better in combat ability either way, other stats such as hp and saves will be on par but prolly better for the lvl 6 fighter.

I'll include solid examples and stats when I get back on my pc.

I know it works because that's what 3.5 and pathfinder does. The old system of 2nd edition and bfrpg has a lvl 3 fighter/mage having far lower combat stats than his single class counterpart at the same xp.

Btw, enhancements were applied to both dp and defense in my house rules. The reason I went w the split ac down the middle past 11 was because full plate was something like ac 17. So I figured max ac from armor was about 6 points over 11, with the rest going to dex. Max ac I saw in bfrpg was 22, which is 11 over unarmored. So id say it was fair to assume 5 was for armor, 6 for dodging ability (I give preference to dodge). The preference. Could go either way, but human dex limit is a plus 3 bonus. So one could say max defense of say 4, with rest going to dp, but I thought my equal split for dodge/dp bonus was fair (especially since hd grants bonus to dp as well)

UPDATE:

I did some number checking, and it appears you are right.

125K XP Fighter
Level 8
HP: 8d8 (Avg: 36)
BAB: +6
Saves: +8, +7, +6, +4, +3

125K Fighter/Mage
Level 6
HP: 6d6+6d4 Avg: 36
BAB: +7
Saves: +8, +7, +7, +3, +4

I suppose I could implement an Exp Penalty, but I see it's really imbalanced and favored towards the multi-classers. Even with a 10% exp penalty, the Level 6 Fighter/Mage has more than a 10% bonus on BAB. I also don't like how the Hit Points are the same, if anything, I was expecting them to be lower. I'll have to look at this again. Maybe impose a 20% Exp Penalty.

UPDATE 2:
I think I understand what you were trying to explain about requiring x2 or more EXP to the next level. Since that means a combo PC will prolly be just 1 level below his non combo counter-part. Example, a level 3 Fighter-Mage will be below a Level 4 Mage in EXP. Because a level 4 Mage EXP is more than a level 3 Fighter + level 3 Mage EXP.

Yes you read that right, only thiefs gets +1/5 levels.

What I did was look at Pathfinder. Thief's got 8 skills per level, other's got 2. There was 35 Skills, I divided their number by 35, which gave me about 1/20 and 1/5. I was contemplating Int modifier, but I ditched including that.

I'll check out 3.5 SRD on splitting Armor for DP.

I did ponder weapon finesse for certain weapons (maybe pointed weapon attacks, but it makes it difficult). Maybe only blunt weapons get str bonus? Then cleric's would focus on strength. Hmmm.....

Pooling the bonuses will work correctly in that regard (a 3/3 F/MU will consistently come in behind a 6 or 7 Ftr). It also helps to remember not to double-count level 1/1(or figure out when the other level 1gets added), but the road to getting those 6 levels is not quite as even between the two.

Comparing XP is where you run into trouble:

Level by XP (advancing on combined XP totals)
XP---Ftr----F/MU
5k----3-----2/2
10k---4----3/3
25k---5----4/4
50k---6----5/5
125k -8----6/6 or 7/6

The BAB is comparable at each XP count, only because Ftr is paired with MU. F/Thief and F/Cleric are scary. Hit Dice stack up fast though.

(EDIT - Ah, you found it already. The below might be an alternative to explore)

If you let them go up side-by-side in classes, counting the fighter/mu as a level 6 character means the fastest way to gain levels is to multiclass, as the lower levels tally up faster. The 3/3.5/3.75 stacking multiclass system relies on that common table - each time you add a class level, your total needed for another level of anything moves further up the table. What you need to make this work is to find a way to make sure level X characters are in the same XP ballpark, regardless of how many classes it takes to add up to X.

First thought is to take the most expensive class in a set, and use their XP table - alternating between which class is gained for a given level. In the gish example, A F/M-U would use the MU progression, going up one in each class every two character levels, or alternating on which goes up at a given level (F/MU/F/MU etc.) Either way the 3/3 would be level 6, 40k xp. This also deals nicely with the whole geometric-to-linear changeover at 9. It would probably be kinder to do an averaged XP table for each allowed combination - their total level advancement is between their two classes, and softens the issue of having the special abilities at half the level of your compatriots.

Included here is the need to skip level 2, or rather not gain in levels, but pick up the "worst" HD and bonuses from level 1 classes (I think v3 let you start at 0.5/0.5, and not gain levels until you got past 1/1). I suppose you could skip this part, and just remember to count your x/y character as level (x+y-1)... but I'd rather have a weird calibration level than a continuous degrees of freedom adjustment.

---

On the finesse side: "light" pointy weapons tend to be the ones we see in that regard - dagger, shortsword... "fencing" blades... some longswords...

One way to approach it is weapon size and weight - small edged weapons (daggers, rapiers, shortswords... um...) are better finessed, heavy blunt and chopping weapons (maces, battle axes, 2-handed swords (usually)) are might-based, with a few crossovers (longsword could be used either way in my mind, as well as quarterstaff - is it a fast-moving piece of wood, or a really long lever for applying force?).

I will just stand by my comment that there are much easier ways to make these options available and viable for a game than a complete overhaul of the game itself. Unified mechanics may seem logical or elegant, but I have found over time that the quirks of not-so-perfectly fit together mechanics do not detract, but rather add to the experience of the game.

I love having loads of options for players and their characters... which is why I have produced several supplements to explore such things. In the end, all my supplemental materials are designed to fit into the core rules with little or no modification of the rules themselves.

Joe:

I like your idea on average levels on a base standard table (I believe the standard level table for Pathfinder is how it works, cuz it takes double your XP to gain a level in another class).

I think your idea of going with the either of the class's higher XP table is a great idea.
If I do that, would a class say split to another class based on what he wants? Say a level 5 Magic-User wants to be a level 1 fighter. So he has to get hte Level 6 Magic-User XP, then he can take a lvl 1 Fighter beni's.
I see a problem with that. Once level 1 Fighter, why progress in fighter anymore? One could abuse that. And as a level 1 Fighter, upon reaching Level 2, he wants to become a Magic-User. Now he gets to wear armor and cast spells. Yeah, I like the idea of forcing to progress both classes. I have to analyze your idea more.

Update: I see what your saying, alternate between level progressions based on higher xp. I don't think an average is a good idea because it means he's gaining Magic-User levels at lower XP than a Magic-User is. What do you think?

On the other hand:

I understand the game is basic for a reason, and on it's own merit's works just fine. Now that I see the Combo Class's are only about a level or two behind in stats than their non combo class counter-parts, I'm okay with that (I was erroneously thinking they would be at half level, but there's only half XP, which is about 1 level behind).

Thank you for your great comments. I might try the higher class XP table and see where it goes from there.