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I wanted to try an attempt for a different kind of "cosmology". There seems to be little reason to try and come up with any kind of pantheon (or set of pantheons) or planar structure. All have been done to death, in a wide range of variations. And the only interesting one I can think of would probably be immediately banned. But what I haven't seen much of (and I don't have that large of a breadth of experience) is going in the other direction. Namely no cosmology.

Fundamentally, everything works as it would with a traditional cosmology, but there is no cosmology. There are no planes. There are no gods. Magic *does* exist, as it has to (or this would be a completely different game). Arcane magic works the same as it does normally, and in the same way. Divine magic also works the same way, but it isn't powered by gods or spirits. Rather it is the same kind of magic as arcane magic. However, rather than being tapped by innate abilities, it is tapped through belief and convictions. This means that divine magic works like it was powered by gods, and clerics can "fall" if they violate or lose their beliefs and convictions. (Though, of course, they are free to regain their magic by either repenting and returning to their beliefs and convictions, or by adopting a new set of beliefs and convictions.) But, underneath, it is the same magic accessed in a different way.

The other side of this is that the characters don't *know* there are no gods. As such, gods are still worshipped. There can be any number of pantheons. There can be any number of kinds of gods and any number of kinds of religious beliefs. There can even be followers of one god (or religion) that believe contradictory things, but still can cast divine spells. This also means that the kobold cleric that worships an ordinary dragon may indeed be able to cast spells, despite the dragon not being an actual god. Do note that it isn't the beliefs and convictions that power divine magic. Instead, it is the beliefs and convictions that give access to it. The actual source of magic is still whatever the source of any magic is for the world.

This means that, even though raise dead and reincarnate still work (all of the mechanical aspects remain unchanged), in the period between dying and coming back to life, the character is completely gone. They remember nothing, not because they lose memory of their time in the outer planes, but because there is nothing to remember.

There are no planes. The reality is mutable to a degree, so there are "spaces between", but any such spaces (typically called the Faerie Realm and the Shadow Realm) are still part of the world, but are pieces of the world that have been warped and altered and "set aside" by the magic of the world. They are not separate from the world, but are just a very odd part of it. (This same principle is how extra dimensional spaces work.) Note that this isn't to say there are only two types of these "spaces between", just that they are the most well known. There could be multiple versions of each. They could be the same space. There could be multiple spaces that have nothing to do with either, but are still lumped with them. Regardless, these "spaces between" are present and can be accessed. How easy they are to access depends.

Since there are no planes, there are no elemental planes and no outer planes. Elementals are core elements of the world that are made manifest through the power of magic. They don't come from somewhere else; they just appear and, when their time is up, they disappear. This is also true of infernals and celestials (and any other summoned creature, for that matter). When they are summoned, they are actually created from whole cloth right at that moment. When they are dismissed, they are gone. However, due to how they are created and the beliefs of their creator, they will have fully formed memories and histories they know to be "true". Summoned intelligent beings do not truly know or understand the actual horrors of their brief existences, but instead, fully believe their own given histories and past. No matter how convoluted, contradictory, or nonsensical they may be.

So, does this sound interesting? Is it worth writing up? Has this been done to death, too? Is it just stupid? Note that the world is pretty irrelevant here, so it can be used with virtually any actual setting. It is just the framework in which a setting can exist. There are also intentional open questions that would have to still be answered. (Big one: are there souls or not? That can make a *big* difference for undead and reincarnate!)

Religion is almost always a huge part of any setting.
It permeates politics. It's found in almost all educational systems because the priest is the first guy who has free times to study something.
The exception is the cult of personality in the communist totalitarian states.

Some eastern religions are close to what you're describing.
I tried to use the I Ching in a campaign once but I quickly lost interest.
It was worse than the weapons vs armour type tables.

So my take on what you're trying to do is that it's just part of a campaign setting and a campaign setting is only interesting to me if there are adventures set specifically in that setting. I've run games in Mystara, Greyhawk, Kara-Tur and Nehwon, without spending too much time on learning about the setting of those worlds.

It's the type of thing I would probably enjoy reading, but more because it touches on religion/philosophy than it having any application to how one would run a game.

Seven is right, pantheons and campaigns go hand-in-hand. So in the scheme of supplements, I guess what you're proposing would fall under "world building aids" or something? It would be its own category, actually.

It doesn't seem to have much to do with game mechanics. Your explanation of how clerical magic works is as plausible as clerics getting their spells after praying to Zeus. Explaining what the undead (especially non-corporeal) really are would be interesting.

But I keep coming back to, how would any of this affect the way a game is played, or even run? If the answer is "not at all", it doesn't mean it still isn't worth writing. I've read tons of campaign/speculative stuff that I've never used, but it's still useful because it prompts other ideas in me (e.g. your post got me thinking about a really interesting-but-very-dark campaign idea). But I ask the question in case there's something I'm not understanding from your original post.

Just to be completely clear, this not only allows for religions, it expects religions. Without religion, there are no clerics, and this idea is intentionally designed to make use of clerics. In fact, it can work with just about any "terrestrial" setting that already exists. (I.e. it should work with Grayhawk. It won't work with Planescape.) The world described is filled with gods and religions. The difference is that none of them are "real".

So, any setting using this cosmology could be played in one of two ways:
1) Everyone is in on this, and religion and gods can be heavily abstracted out. That way the game can be played normally, but no one has to really worry about gods and such because none of them actually exist. It really helps keep things nebulous so the fun stuff can be played.
2) No one knows this. The setting has a fully developed set of pantheons and religions that heavily affect the setting and the characters within it. All fully believe in their gods and afterlife and such. They just don't exist, but no one knows that because the divine magic still works.

The point of this is not to have a setting with no religion or gods. Gods and religions are supposed to be in the setting. The point is that none of them are "real" and there are no planes. This means there is no focus on plane-hopping or trying to ascend or anything like that. You get this life; make the best of it. But virtually all of the characters in the setting (probably including the PCs) very much believe in their religions and gods, which still exert their expected influence in the world.

Bumblepig wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:44 amBut I keep coming back to, how would any of this affect the way a game is played, or even run? If the answer is "not at all", it doesn't mean it still isn't worth writing.

This is an excellent question I have apparently failed to answer. Let me try again.

The way it affects how the game is played is that there are no planes. There are no actual gods. The belief in gods still affects and permeates everything because that still exists. But since there are no gods, there can be no actions of gods. Because there are no planes, there is no afterlife; this life is the life you get. You can't plane-hop as there is nowhere to go.

For low-level adventures, basically nothing changes. The impact occurs at medium-level to high-level adventures. The impact is that characters will continue to focus on their worlds instead of simply abandoning it to explore the planes. It means there are no ascension options; a character cannot become a god because there aren't any. It means there is no divine intervention. It means there are no "real" extra-planar creatures.

This also provides options for entirely different developments in a setting.

- A released extra-planar creature somehow realizes/finds out that it is an artificially created thing whose memories and origins are all false. What are they going to do? How do they react? Do they go crazy? Do they adapt? What do they do to try and fix the problem? How do they deal with the existential threat of being "Dispelled" into non-existence.

- A released extra-planar creature does NOT figure things out. It continuously tries to "go home" but cannot. How does it react to that?

- Don't tell the players that there are no gods. Let them figure it out and see how things evolve from there. Obviously, this can only be done once, and it has to be done with players that are OK with such a reveal, but it could be a pretty cool campaign. The fact that low-level play is pretty much affected by this is a big bonus, as the reveal is something the campaign would grow into.

- "Update" the environment to include the inevitable transition period where some people are realizing the "reality" that there are no gods. It could be early in the process with a few heretics proclaiming this, in the tumultuous middle of the process, or even at the end of the process where there are still many fervent holdouts trying to cling to the old way of life. Any of these give opportunity to take a very familiar, very well know setting and completely recast it in a new way.

- Flip the previous item. The transition is either mid- or late-process, but a very powerful individual claims to have ascended to godhood. They are obviously (to anyone who knows the base truth) a charlatan, but they still amass a fervent, devoted following. And, to be honest, if they are powerful enough, are they not still effectively a god? This cosmology still allows for extra-dimensional spaces. What happens if this extraordinarily powerful person creates a large such space for his follower's "afterlives"? Is that not effectively a proto-plane? What if they create two such spaces: one as "heaven" and the other as "hell"? There are just so many ways this could go if you want it to. And do the players help the person or work to take them down?

- Explore the "spaces between". These are not planes, but are still separate enough to effectively be their own settings. I have read multiple stories using these concepts (e.g. Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman) and they can be incredibly fun. Plus it allows whole new approaches to the presentation of faerie and shadow-related creatures.

Finally, there is the whole open question of whether "souls" exist. I intentionally leave that question open, allowing GMs to further color the use of this cosmology. As long as souls exist, then natural reincarnation and being brought back from death still work as they are normally presented. If, however, there is no soul, then any of that stuff becomes much more of an existential horror to be explored.

So, you've basically got the Star War's "Force" or something. A power that does stuff and "avatars" ("gods") that people think are real but it's just the force doing stuff/ giving powers to people. And, as a result, there is NO after life or alternate planes of dimension.

If your players, which I assume some will be clerics, discover this, what sort of impact will it have on your game? What might be some "threads" that follow out of this theme? Are they going to try to convert "gods believing" folks to their view of the "force" and find opposition/ trouble? That's about the only "thread" that I can see coming out of it.

Of course, you lose the possibility of planar adventures and if you don't enjoy those types of adventures, then no major loss there. Sometimes adventures are given through a vision or message that a cleric receives and I guess that would be lost as well (unless a cleric receives a "force" vision). You also lose the ability to resurrect PC's which can be a pretty cool adventure hook.

Your group might enjoy something like this . . . and they may not. Personally, I stay away from the religion aspect and just mention folks who follow Chaos or Law. Whatever the case, as a GM, I would go along with whatever my players find interesting. Trying to force-feed players something that you find interesting . . . that won't turn out well.

Snarkythekobold wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:11 am So, you've basically got the Star War's "Force" or something. A power that does stuff and "avatars" ("gods") that people think are real but it's just the force doing stuff/ giving powers to people. And, as a result, there is NO after life or alternate planes of dimension.

This is NOT intended to be the "force". Arcane magic comes from wherever arcane magic comes from. If that's the "force" for you, great. But that is not implied or wanted in this. Arcane magic is specifically unchanged and unaffected by this cosmology. (Divine magic does change and just becomes a type of arcane magic accessed in a different way.)

If your players, which I assume some will be clerics, discover this, what sort of impact will it have on your game? What might be some "threads" that follow out of this theme? Are they going to try to convert "gods believing" folks to their view of the "force" and find opposition/ trouble? That's about the only "thread" that I can see coming out of it.

If you are playing with nebulous gods and no defined religion, you are already playing a form of this cosmology already, and so there will be little practical effect. If you are playing with lots of religion and gods then, yes, this will (at least eventually) have an effect. But, in this case, it affects more than just clerics, as it will affect anyone who worships a god. And it can affect the very underpinnings of society in general. (If kings gain their power through "divine right" and you take away the "divine", the "right" disappears with it. This is not a trivial issue.)

But the point is that it can be made as big of a deal or as small of a deal as you want.

Of course, you lose the possibility of planar adventures and if you don't enjoy those types of adventures, then no major loss there. Sometimes adventures are given through a vision or message that a cleric receives and I guess that would be lost as well (unless a cleric receives a "force" vision). You also lose the ability to resurrect PC's which can be a pretty cool adventure hook.

Actually, no. You don't need a "force" vision. You just need magic. And if you can't figure out how to use illusion spells to accomplish that, you're not really trying. So, no, that isn't lost; though the nature of the vision probably ends up changing. And, no, you don't lose the ability to raise characters (PC or not) from the dead. That still happens, as that spell still exists. A main underpinning of the whole cosmology is that what characters can do in Core BFRPG doesn't change. So, raising the dead (and creating undead) are still very much on the table. What that actually means is up to the GM, but those abilities and spells are still present and still work.

What you do lose is planar adventures. That is kinda the point and so, yes, that goes away. But, if your group likes those, then no, this cosmology is NOT for you.

Your group might enjoy something like this . . . and they may not. Personally, I stay away from the religion aspect and just mention folks who follow Chaos or Law. Whatever the case, as a GM, I would go along with whatever my players find interesting. Trying to force-feed players something that you find interesting . . . that won't turn out well.

Well, yeah. As I mentioned in the original post, there are vast numbers of cosmologies out there. Even the original publishers put out at least a half-dozen completely separate settings, cosmologies, and sets of pantheons of gods. The put out an additional setting that mushed them all together. The main alternative publisher puts out a single set of 20 main gods with what has to now be literally 100 other gods to choose from. Play what you enjoy.

But, I don't see any real cosmologies intentionally designed to lock things down to just the main world (and its single universe). That's what this is intended to provide: that option. Obviously, if you want gods to exist and you want a whole wheel of outer plans, this cosmology is not for you. But, if you are tired of that, then this will give a framework from which that can be accomplished. Nothing in BFRPG in specific, or this hobby in general, is intended to be for everyone. It is just another tool and option that is available for anyone interested.

I see. Kinda like a Universal Field Theory that explains divine magic.

I don't roleplay my gods. The ones my players are most likely to encounter are the chtonic ones, mostly through natural disasters. Orcus is the god that punishes oath breakers and it's enough to have him appear in tavern tales to keep players honest. I have zero interest in my players visiting other planes, except maybe a pocket universe or two. Those are fun, but Olympus or Gehenna, meh.
I use extra-planar creatures. All my divine magic is based on invocation, which mean each scroll is addressed to a particular god, some of which the players may be hesitant to call upon. It's mostly flavor text.

I suppose I could have a small group of scholars pushing your cosmology while having it discredited by the majority. I think that's the most effect it could have in my campaign.

Your examples of how this affects the game provide fodder for some pretty cool adventure hooks. They mostly boil down to some kind existential crisis from affected PCs (those poor clerics!) or NPCs (those poor summoned creatures!). Another impact of such a revelation in the campaign is that the realization of the true cosmology might affect certain clerical or extraplanar magical effects. It would cut both ways: players might find themselves able to "defeat" extraplanar entities if their true understanding of reality ("enlightenment"?) is sufficient. Clerics who now no longer believe in their deities may lose their ability to cast spells, temporarily, until they learn to perform the same magic outside of praying to a deity.

The question of "what really happens with resurrection" is pretty important, especially if souls don't exist. If the GM opts for an extreme case, the PC could end up playing the part of a permanent illusory effect.

You seem to be accounting for all the ways in which this doesn't have to affect game mechanics unless that's what the GM is setting out to do by adopting this cosmology.

Again, all of this probably falls under the category of world-building aids.

P.S. I don't want to create a tangent, but your idea got me thinking of another alternative cosmology. In that one, deities do exist, but they aren't what they appear to be. They're all infernals, masquerading as holy entities. Such a campaign setting would lead to a similar unpleasant revelation at some point. And if infernals are actually running the show, the implication is that the PCs are literally in hell.
Pretty dark, and I would never do it.

Read the Western Lands intro material from BF1 again... without saying so, the game allows the possibility of your cosmology. The Tahists believe in one true god, but yet the followers of the Hundred also cast clerical spells. There is more than one way to interpret this.

But I can't give up my other dimensions. Just can't. Though even here, I don't use (nor promote) the "outer planes" as given in other period source material.