Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

Solomoriah wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:13 am Ack. There are two schools of thought on including all the spells... I don't like it, as it makes the supplements artificially larger and also introduces the possibility of creeping discrepancies. But others feel the class supplements are more useful if they are complete, so that the player doesn't have to look for spells in both the core rules and the supplement. In the past I have bowed to the desires of those who wanted the "full" class supplements.

Perhaps we need to have a discussion on the subject.

Taking a cue from Solomoriah and starting a thread to discuss this.

So just to give my 2cents right away....
I am flexible. Personally I like compartmentalization, but with completeness. This is why I like Libram Magica... one place to find spells for the game, whether from core rules or from other areas.

I also like classes to be fully written out (as far as the actual class bits). This is why I don't like when people write classes with phrases like "combat as Magic-User" or "Saves like Fighter", instead preferring it to be fully worded out. I dislike the idea of having to look in the Supplement and in the Core Rules base-class to decipher the various abilities.

Now when I was writing a few of the class offerings that I have personally worked on, obviously because they needed their own spells they got included in their own Spells section. Likewise, I added thematic magic items to such offerings.

All this said, because we are dealing in digital files for the supplements... and not necessarily print products in of themselves, I propose this. How about we set up two (or more if necessary) documents when we set up "new spell using classes"?? One for the class, and another for the spells/spell-lists in question. This could make the editing process a little less discombobulated... and honestly, once the class portion is finished it is a little more static compared to spell lists and spell edits/changes.

My recommendation is that all featured classes (those on the Downloads page) have all of their spells added to New Spells. At that point, New Spells becomes the "source of record" on spells. If there are any discrepancies, New Spells wins. Libram Magica is still very important, as it becomes a repository for all other spells that don't go into New Spells.

If that is done, then the Class Supplements can include all spells needed for the class (that isn't in the Core Rules). Even if a spell is included in more than one Class Supplement, then if inevitable "drift" happens, it is easy to update by copying from New Spells, and New Spells is still the source of record.

Or it can be decided that all Class Supplements always refer to New Spells for their spells. Regardless, it is important that every spell in a Downloads page Supplement be included in New Spells.

Also, as spells are added to New Spells, it needs to be determined who, exactly, gets to use those spells. For example, the Familiar spell should really be available for Magic-Users and Illusionists in addition to Spellcrafters. This would be noted in New Spells. (I excluded Necromancer since they get *two* toys in place of familiars, not to mention their small army of skeletons and zombies.) There are lots of spells like this that will need to be noted in New Spells.

EDIT: Also, maybe the New Spells supplement needs to be divided into two:
1) Seventh level spells for everyone and ONLY seventh level spells.
2) The compendium of all first through sixth level spells for all Downloads page classes not in the Core Rules.
This way the optional rules of seventh level spells isn't mixed with all of the first through sixth level spells the other classes need (and that add to the base classes).

I actually prefer the class having its core abilities and all the spell been somewhere else, otherwise one might end with multiple copies of a spell in several supplements. I don't like the "this supplement requires these other supplements" but its not something that can always be avoided, specially if it helps avoiding material multiplication.

I would't be bothered with each class having its own separated spell appendix as to left to each person if they want to include it or not.

daryen wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:59 am EDIT: Also, maybe the New Spells supplement needs to be divided into two:
1) Seventh level spells for everyone and ONLY seventh level spells.
2) The compendium of all first through sixth level spells for all Downloads page classes not in the Core Rules.
This way the optional rules of seventh level spells isn't mixed with all of the first through sixth level spells the other classes need (and that add to the base classes).

I don't forsee a sep. New Spells document just for that one spell level; at least not on the Downloads page. On the Workshop sub-forum, on the other hand, you or anyone else can of course create and share such a document.

Dimirag wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:20 pm I actually prefer the class having its core abilities and all the spell been somewhere else, otherwise one might end with multiple copies of a spell in several supplements. I don't like the "this supplement requires these other supplements" but its not something that can always be avoid, specially if it helps avoiding material multiplication.

I personally prefer this. It's also how the Downloads page is setup, with all the supplements building on top of the Core Rules, requiring only that one document to function.

That's one reason we don't have one large Field Guide that has duplicated all the existing entries from the Core Rules along with the additional new creations. Of course, that's partly why we share the ODT files, so if someone wants to do that for their own table/online, they are more than welcome to do so.

Classes should stand alone, requiring no other supplements; whether or not they include copies of Core Rules spells is another question. In fact, copies of spells are the entire question.

My preference is this: Classes should stand alone, but should not copy materials from the Core Rules. Duplication may be convenient, but if we change a spell in the Core we'd have to find every class on the Downloads page with a copy of that spell and fix it also. I feel this way about each and every duplication, not just spells; even though the Core Rules are as much set in stone as I can make them, they still change a little every now and then. Likewise, ideally New Spells should contain only spells that do not appear in either the Core or any class supplement on the Downloads page, so as to avoid duplication (and in this case, the chance that a spell will change necessitating hunting down all copies is significantly higher). I briefly liked the idea of a Seventh Level Spells supplement, but I've already decided I don't... seventh level spells are a straightforward extension of the standard spell rules. But that's also why I don't want cantrips there... they represent a modification of the standard spell rules. Also, unlike seventh level spells, you're stuck with them from day 1 if you allow them. Making them a part of New Spells makes them more "official" and I don't want that.

That's my preference. Minimal or no duplication, and no class supplement depending on any other class supplement. But I know not everyone agrees with me... this is your chance to plead your case.

BTW for those who don't get it yet... Libram Magica isn't on the Downloads page because its a compilation. Anything that combines multiple supplements is a compilation, and I don't want them on the Downloads page. It's a very cool book, but it can't go there. Neither can my own Glain supplement, for the same reason.

Solo, just asking here, If every class where to be removed from its spells, and those spells ended in either the New Spell or Libram, then the Libram would be ok to appear in the download section? As it will contain spells that does not appear anywhere else.

If LM gets too big at some point it would be ok to split it and start a LM2?

Not duplicating core spells is ok, not duplicating those but duplicating those from New Spell or LM could lead to "incomplete" files, to me in this case its better to not do than to half doing it

First, I must have been unclear. I do not advocate putting the spells from the Core Rules *anywhere* but in the Core Rules. If, for example, the Druid uses Cure Light Wounds, then the Druid Supplement does not include that spell description, as it is in the Core Rules. That's my recommendation for the spells in the Core Rules: they only appear in the Core Rules regardless of where they are used.

Now, onto the actual issues.

1) The Spellcrafter (a class on the Downloads page) uses Heat Metal. The Druid (a class on the Downloads page) uses Heat Metal. To do the "each class is complete" idea, then that spell has to be put into BOTH the Spellcrafter and the Druid documents. That means that it is possible that there could be an update to one or both files that causes there to be two slightly different Heat Metal spells. That's not the only one in the Spellcrafter file. It also has (on a very cursory glance) Rock to Mud (shared with the Druid) and Dream (shared with the Illusionist). How do we handle those spells when they are assigned to multiple classes?

I am also working on the (Blood) Sorcerer class. Right now it simply hopes to someday grow up and be in Showcase. But, if it were to move to Downloads, it will have just an absolute *ton* of duplicate spells (by design). It shares a bunch of spells with Druid, Illusionist, and Necromancer. It's a worst case scenario, but it shows the issue very well.

2) One of the purposes of New Spells, aside from the seventh level spells, is to have "extra" first through sixth level spells available. So, for example I want to put Restore Health into it. In 3.5 SRD, it is called Lesser Restoration and it is a very valuable spell for Clerics and Druids that is fundamental enough and important enough to include in New Spells. Then it can be available to both Clerics and Druids. Great.

But ... let's take a look at Familiar. Currently, it is New Spells and is available to Magic-Users. Presumably, it might even be available to Illusionists. That would be all well and good, except that it is specifically listed in the Spellcrafter spell list. If Spellcrafter is supposed to be complete, then that means we have to pull it from New Spells, which means an incredibly iconic Magic-User spell is no longer available to Magic-Users (or anyone else, for that matter).

So, how do we make sure that spells that are "assigned" to a class in the Downloads page can still be an "extra" spell for other classes. Especially for Clerics and Magic-Users?

Finally, how should we handle Showcase Classes? Should they be complete, too? Or should they reference any spells in the Downloads page rather than copy them?

I hope this explains the issues I am trying to highlight and get answers around.

daryen wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:32 pm1) The Spellcrafter (a class on the Downloads page) uses Heat Metal. The Druid (a class on the Downloads page) uses Heat Metal. To do the "each class is complete" idea, then that spell has to be put into BOTH the Spellcrafter and the Druid documents. That means that it is possible that there could be an update to one or both files that causes there to be two slightly different Heat Metal spells. That's not the only one in the Spellcrafter file. It also has (on a very cursory glance) Rock to Mud (shared with the Druid) and Dream (shared with the Illusionist). How do we handle those spells when they are assigned to multiple classes?

If they are "core" or "basic" spells for the class, they must be duplicated. Duplication is probably unavoidable at some level. But this is an instance where exact compatibility is less important, as they will never be in a position to disagree with the core rules, only each other.

daryen wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:32 pm2) One of the purposes of New Spells, aside from the seventh level spells, is to have "extra" first through sixth level spells available. So, for example I want to put Restore Health into it. In 3.5 SRD, it is called Lesser Restoration and it is a very valuable spell for Clerics and Druids that is fundamental enough and important enough to include in New Spells. Then it can be available to both Clerics and Druids. Great.

But ... let's take a look at Familiar. Currently, it is New Spells and is available to Magic-Users. Presumably, it might even be available to Illusionists. That would be all well and good, except that it is specifically listed in the Spellcrafter spell list. If Spellcrafter is supposed to be complete, then that means we have to pull it from New Spells, which means an incredibly iconic Magic-User spell is no longer available to Magic-Users (or anyone else, for that matter).

Another situation where duplication is unavoidable. Any spell in New Spells that is available to core classes, or to Downloads-page supplement classes, has to stay there; but if it's a standard spell for another supplement, it has to be there also.

daryen wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:32 pmFinally, how should we handle Showcase Classes? Should they be complete, too? Or should they reference any spells in the Downloads page rather than copy them?

We don't "handle" them, they are the responsibility of the authors. The only rule for the Showcase is that your supplement shared there must be "complete" as in "no unfinished sections."

Again, some duplication is unavoidable. But you are questioning, and I am defining, the parameters of minimum duplication. This is not answering the original question I asked.

The question, one more time, is this: Do we duplicate everything, making supplement classes fully stand-alone (even including Core Rules spells), or do we only duplicate what we must, keeping the effort involved in syncing the supplements to the minimum? I advocate the latter, but I am open to discuss the former.

If the presented options are:
1-everything
2-mimimum
I go with minimum all the way