Saving Throws Question

[Master Lok]

Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but I also have problems understanding Saving Throws. The names make no sense to me, and neither do the applications. Why would "Spells" be the saving throw for all spells - whether it was charm person or hold person or fireball?

If you were to rename the saving throw categories - what would you rename them?

For me, may there should one for Transformations (petrify), constitution (poisons), reflexes (rays), elemental (fire/cold/etc.), mental and lastly spirit attacks (off the top of my head). What think you?

[teluria]

You may be overthinking this. If you expect it to make utter sense and be a model of reality of any kind, you're probably getting away from old school.

One of the reasons I came back from old school was the realization that all that was really needed for the game to work was some way of resolving success or failure. Beyond that it's all a matter of how you describe it. Thinking about it too much just complicates things and invites rules lawyering.

[SmootRK]

Yes, use the one that serves the purpose you want. They don't need to make perfect sense. In addition, you can assign modifiers as needed to mold it to how difficult you want it to be (or not).

[dymondy2k]

I like adding the modifiers to it to give it some flexibility.

[Master Lok]

You may be overthinking this. If you expect it to make utter sense and be a model of reality of any kind, you're probably getting away from old school.

One of the reasons I came back from old school was the realization that all that was really needed for the game to work was some way of resolving success or failure. Beyond that it's all a matter of how you describe it. Thinking about it too much just complicates things and invites rules lawyering.

You're probably right, but then we can go the other way. Why not have one saving throw per class? I.e. Thief saving throw is... 16 at level 1, regardless of spell attack, or petrify or wands etc.

Anyways, I'm not suggesting that saving throws be redone since this is Basic D&D after all but I appreciate the knowledge that is on this forum and wanted to poke some ideas about. I'm used to having a ton of house rules since my players always ask questions that I have difficulties answering if they don't make sense to me.

Alignments for example is another entire ball of wax for me.

[SmootRK]

Alignments for example is another entire ball of wax for me.

Which is one reason I don't utilize them at all... BFRPG does not use them, except for a Supplement that can be used.

Feel free to ignore stuff about alignment. Even when using stuff like Holy quasi-class, or Paladins, the supplements are written so that the exact use of alignment is not necessary.

[JoeCarr28]

If you put all the nostalgia and Old School baggage to one side and take the rules at face value, the classic set of Saving Throws are, for me at least, by far and away the least satisfactory aspect of the game system. Some of them are so bizarrely specific that their wider application is often non-obvious.

However, rather than creating new categories, I'd suggest that a good alternative approach can already be found in the Basic Fantasy rulebook - "Ability Rolls" in the Optional Rules section on page 141. So, for example, if I want to see whether someone falls into a pit trap, I'd rather use a Dexterity Ability Roll than a Saving Throw versus Death Ray. It just seems so much more obvious and intuitive. You could also use Ability Rolls the basis of a quick and crude skill system, which is something I'm considering at the moment.

[dymondy2k]

Joe I'm becoming a fan of the ability rolls as well. With the savings throws I wish somebody just had a bucket of things and said this one would be a DR and this one would use DB. I just find myself arbitrarily picking one when I'm not sure which Saving Throw would apply.

[Dimirag]

IIRC AD&D uses Saving throws for special situations only, and for the rest recomends to use an ability roll.

I like the idea of saving throws, but sadly they are kind of "narrow", maybe changing their names to wider situations could welp....

They are based on the source or type of attack rather than in what the character does to defende himself (like in 3rd Ed)

Death Ray/Poison: System Shock*
Magic Wands: If includes Staff and Rodes: Magical Items.
Paralisis/Petrification: If includes Polymorf: Physical Alterations...
Dragon Breath: Area Attacks
Spells: Others (everything that doesn't fit above)

*I'll probably use "Snap Attacks" meaning that the PC avoids the poisoned sting, the tip of the wip, or a closing bear trap (I dont use Con bonus for poison an dont allow a ST against ingested poisons unless the PC has special resistance).

BTW: The Polymorf Other Spell allow a ST agains Polymorf, but on the tables for ST there's no Polymorf ST....
Another thing: If a character suffers a poisoned attack that paralises, he roll for Poison or for Paralisis?

[Joe the Rat]

Polymorph usually went with Petrify/Paralysis, though if it's from a Spell, it may get a Spell save, depending on how it's written.

Using Spells for the catch-all gives you sort of an opposite of using "death" as the catch-all. Generally, Death effects is a relatively easy save, and Spells is the hardest. If there isn't a specific save that makes sense, using attribute checks as a catch-all has potential (DEX check to catch the rope to stop your fall, CON check to avoid heat stroke, etc.). The only downside here is that without some sort of difficulty modifier, these are more difficult than just about every save at low levels.

I think your relabels make sense, and aren't too far off. It's not much of an improvement, but perhaps switch Death Ray/Poison to some sort of "Traps and Stings" save - or use the same number for two categories (Traps and Snaps; Poison, Disease, & Death).

Paralysis/Pet/Poly would be better for the "System Shock" label - AD&D1 had you roll System Shock to see if you survive transformations. It also works well for the fall damage use (in the "save against your bones breaking and organs rupturing from the massive impact when you hit the ground - which means for half damage" sense).