Rear attacks and Facing?

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Gronk
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Rear attacks and Facing?

Post Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:09 am

p54 In general, a facing change is any turn of up to 90º (a
right-angle turn)

p55 any creature that does not move away from its
starting position during the combat round may make as
many facing changes as desired

p46 Attacks made from behind an opponent usually receive a
+2 attack bonus.


Not understanding how rear attacks and facing are used.

Fighter Fred is surrounded by 10 goblins. If Fighter Fred does not move, then no goblin has a rear attack because Fred has unlimited facing changes.

A troll lumbers out of a cave, sees a group of adventures, and attacks the party cleric. What stops the rest of the party from all gaining rear attacks by just walking around to the back of the troll? The troll has already done its facing when it moved and attacked.

Two orcs trying to stop adventures from passing them/gaining rear attacks in a 10ft wide tunnel, a 30ft wide tunnel, a 50ft wide tunnel? How does this work?
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Clever_Munkey
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Re: Rear attacks and Facing?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:15 am

First: Remember that the rules of this game are not supposed to be comprehensive. There may be gaps, or wordings that do not make sense, or don't cover the situation. As with the situations that are covered in the rules, the GM is encouraged to do what makes the most sense to them, and their players, which includes tweaking, replacing, and cutting out rules entirely. Along those lines it's important to remember that any advice given will likely just be that person's own interpretation.

I see it as meaning you can make as many facing changes as you like on your turn, if you don't move. The idea being that the number of facing changes they can make while moving is limited by how far you are able to move. You can't make facing changes on other people's turns.

So fighter Fred would be in a serious pickle because quite a few goblins are getting attacks on his back.

Technically nothing is preventing the rest of the party from moving behind the troll, but I would say if they move within attacking range of the troll, and continue moving to get behind it, then at least one of them will be taking a parting shot. If they are careful to stay out of its range, then they risk not being fast enough to actually get behind it. All that said, it could be strategically risky to try getting around the troll. If the fighter moves, they risk exposing the MU to attack. If the MU wishes to stay behind the fighter, then they must move farther than him, again risking not being fast enough, or making the fighter take a parting shot.

In a 10' wide corridor, the orcs stop their passing. They cannot simply move through an enemy's square. I might let the party try to bowl past them, with some sort of check, but they would almost certainly risk a parting shot. In a 30'+ corridor, if they are outnumbered, it might be impossible.
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Dimirag
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Re: Rear attacks and Facing?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:44 am

I think the Maneuverability rules are for situation where combatants are on the move rather than classic combat situations, but can be applied to them
Fighter Fred is surrounded by 10 goblins. If Fighter Fred does not move, then no goblin has a rear attack because Fred has unlimited facing changes.
Fred could make any number of facing changes on his turn, there are no reactions here.
A troll lumbers out of a cave, sees a group of adventures, and attacks the party cleric. What stops the rest of the party from all gaining rear attacks by just walking around to the back of the troll? The troll has already done its facing when it moved and attacked.
If the characters have enough movement to position there, they can, but, consider that only attacks from the back gets the bonus, there is no rear attack bonus per RAW (although you can rule a +1 for them), so only one character would get the bonus
Two orcs trying to stop adventures from passing them/gaining rear attacks in a 10ft wide tunnel, a 30ft wide tunnel, a 50ft wide tunnel? How does this work?
I would use the initiative values here, if the orcs have the initiative they can hold their action so they can move and intercept the passing adventurers, if the don't have it and the tunnel is wide enough the adventurers will move their movement, then the orcs, and the chase begins!
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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Solomoriah
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Re: Rear attacks and Facing?

Post Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:36 am

Gronk wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:09 am
Not understanding how rear attacks and facing are used.

Fighter Fred is surrounded by 10 goblins. If Fighter Fred does not move, then no goblin has a rear attack because Fred has unlimited facing changes.
Incorrect. Before Fred's Initiative, he cannot move (including to change his facing). Thus, any goblin flanking him who has better Initiative gets +2 on the attack roll. On Fred's Initiative, he can turn wherever he likes; after his move is over, any goblins striking later than him who are now flanking him get the +2.
Gronk wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:09 am
A troll lumbers out of a cave, sees a group of adventures, and attacks the party cleric. What stops the rest of the party from all gaining rear attacks by just walking around to the back of the troll? The troll has already done its facing when it moved and attacked.
Nothing whatsoever protects the troll from that. This means that he should be more careful... or that he trusts his regeneration will save him from his folly. Or maybe he thinks running madly from his cave will make his opponents break and run.
Gronk wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:09 am
Two orcs trying to stop adventures from passing them/gaining rear attacks in a 10ft wide tunnel, a 30ft wide tunnel, a 50ft wide tunnel? How does this work?
Two orcs standing side by side in a 10' wide tunnel can stop the adventurers from flanking them. One might even be able to do that, if he has a weapon with some reach (a spear perhaps). Two orcs aren't stopping anything in a 30' wide corridor, or a 50' wide one.
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Gronk
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Re: Rear attacks and Facing?

Post Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:23 pm

Thanks, got it. Facing only occurs on the individuals turn and there is only one 90º turn if there is movement. But there must be some official/semi-official variant rules that fixes the problems of rear attacks/facing? Otherwise people can just circle strafe each other repeatedly, while walking backwards.
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Re: Rear attacks and Facing?

Post Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:49 pm

That's not a problem... that's the best we can do at mimicking what can happen in real life.

Watch a boxing match, or an MMA fight. They're constantly moving, trying to get an advantage on each other. (Don't waste time watching wrestling, unless you want to know how to fake a fight...)

Or find some video of longsword fighters. It's a thing these days, one I'm not athletic enough to do. Again, they're constantly in motion. One slip, and the other guy gets behind you.

The limit of at most 90 degrees of facing change when moving makes it tricky to get behind someone who's facing you, unless a third party distracts them for you, or you somehow immobilize your opponent. If you're trying to get behind him, and he's only trying to not let you, your opponent can easily keep up (since he can make as many facing changes as he needs to, but you get just the one).
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Dimirag
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Re: Rear attacks and Facing?

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:56 pm

Gronk wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:23 pm
But there must be some official/semi-official variant rules that fixes the problems of rear attacks/facing? Otherwise people can just circle strafe each other repeatedly, while walking backwards.
Considering a playmat with 10'x10' squares, moving to flank your opponent requires 2 squares (20') or 4 (40) to get behind
Only a heavy loaded pc whith metal armor can't reach the flank, other pc's can
Only a lightly loaded pc with no armor or magic leather can reach the opponent's back
Plus, consider that when the pc wants to move to the side, he must turn 90°, move, and then turn 90° again, which he can not do...

Now, you could consider allowing moving sideways on a circular manner, but that seems to deserve a reduction in movement
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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orobouros
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Re: Rear attacks and Facing?

Post Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:08 pm

Chris' reply notwithstanding, there's a simple way to interpret the rules.

One, it's obvious that a sneak attack would come from the rear. I'd let anybody try one, and this rule could apply. Thieves are (obviously) far better at this than anybody else.

Two, assume monsters/adventurers know the basics of combat. It's entirely possible to be flanked and fend off both attackers. I assume (so this is my ruling) that an attack from one side is the same as the other, no matter which way one is facing. Unless both attacks come simultaneously. This means the two flankers have to coordinate their attack, the one of them waiting on their action until the other is ready. If they're on the same turn, it doesn't matter. If they're on separate turns, one of them has to give up their initiative advantage and wait for the other one.

I adopt this rule because on Roll20 the tokens can be oriented, but often players forget or it's not clear which way they're facing. Managing angles is for trig, and in my experience it bogs things down. However, this is very much my own house rule.
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Re: Rear attacks and Facing?

Post Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:45 pm

Attacking from behind at +2, anyone can do. A thief's sneak attack is +4 to hit, and double damage; only thieves get this.
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Gronk
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Re: Rear attacks and Facing?

Post Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:01 pm

Solomoriah wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:49 pm
The limit of at most 90 degrees of facing change when moving makes it tricky to get behind someone who's facing you, unless a third party distracts them for you, or you somehow immobilize your opponent. If you're trying to get behind him, and he's only trying to not let you, your opponent can easily keep up (since he can make as many facing changes as he needs to, but you get just the one).

Image

Fighter Fred and Brigand Bob are in combat, 20ft apart. Both are wearing leather and move 30ft. Brigand Bob wins initiative and walks north past Fred. Bob changes his facing 90º west and attacks Fred in the back.

Fighter Fred now acts. He turns his facing 90º west and fighting withdraws/walks past Bob to rear attack.

If there is enough room to manoeuvre in this fight, every attack could be a rear attack. Correct?

Clever_Munkey's paraphrasing of defensive moment (p45) is interesting. The “leaving an opponent's melee area of attack provokes a +2 parting shot”, cuts down on some rear melee attacks. Having a danger zone forces wider turns.
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