Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

I'm preparing to run a module from Teaman (Frostbury: The Lost City) at OSRCon in Toronto this August, so I thought I'd better go through the module and the rules to figure out how I would handle possible situations that may arise during play. Well, "I was blind but now I see"! The crunch! THE CRUNCH!

For example, I'm reading over spells and initiative on page 15. Ah, spellcasters must have at least one hand free and be able to speak. Good to know. Monsters will be trying to tangle up or silence the party's spell casters.

Then I read the following:
If a spellcaster is attacked (successfully or not) or must make a saving throw (successful or not) on the spellcaster's turn in Initiative (so a monster/NPC has the same Initiative number as the spellcaster), then the spell is spoiled and lost. Exception: 2 spellcasters can cast spells at each other on the same Initiative number and both casters will succeed with their casting. However, 1 caster may disrupt another caster with a spell only if he has a better Initiative & chooses to delay casting the spell right before the other caster.

What? Simultaneous actions in Initiative? Huh? Usually when I play if players/monsters have the same Initiative roll (or number) I usually allow players to go first then monsters. Hello! What's this?
Page 44 of the rules:
"Any characters/monsters with equal [Initiative] numbers act simultaneously..... If desired, a combatant [therefore, a character or a monster] can choose to wait until a later [lower] [Initiative] number to act.... In this case, the player character's action [or monster's action if it waited] is simultaneous with the creature waited for, just as if they had rolled the same number."

But why would you do this? I refer you back to Spells and Initiative above.

So a clever spellcaster with a high Initiative number can delay his or her attack until an enemy spellcaster's turn, cast a spell at the enemy caster AND disrupt the enemy caster's spell making it spoiled and lost! That changes things doesn't it?

Also, back to page 44 and Initiative:
"A character [and I would say monsters, too] using a weapon with a long reach (spears, for instance) may choose to attack a closing opponent on the closing opponent's [Initiative] number and thus attack simultaneously with the opponent, even if the character rolled lower for Initiative."

These are awesome little rules of which I was ignorant. They make spellcasters and longer weapons a little more fearsome.

One question though. Would an attacker who had delayed their action until a lower Initiative number stay at that number? If so, does a spellcaster who did this always go just before the other spellcaster?

What other little nuggets of goodness have I missed? I'm going to test run the Brawling and Wrestling rules, too, because I think they would be fun to use in a game.

I have to go back and look but I am pretty sure you roll initiative every round so anyone who held his action would not be held to that the next round. (Init every round page 44)

The best thing about simultaneous action is the opportunity for PC and NPC to one shot each other. I was in a game where that happened. It was funny as a barrel of zombie monkeys. Maybe the fighter who died wasn't as amused but the rest of us were.

I don't know what you missed but many people forget that thrown weapons get the strengnth damage bonus/penalty even though they are range attacks.

Also, oil and holy water can hit someone else even when they miss. See grenade like missiles miss chart on page 47. Also, range weapons fired into melee that miss the intended target may hit someone else, even a party member.

If the order is Player A, Enemy, Player B, then Player A may delay until B is ready, so as to move to opposide sides of an enemy and attack at the same time. How this effects combat is up to the GM -- and a good GM will let this tactical decision play out in some way differently than a simple sequence of attacks.

In the meantime, the enemy can attack player A on the enemy's initiative. They don't have to wait until the party gets everything all honky dory for themselves.

I do allow players to hold an Initiative from round to round, without rerolling on subsequent rounds. However, if you wait to attack on another character's Initiative number (because, for example, you are waiting for that enemy to close with you), you act simultaneously... unless you have reach, in which case you act slightly before your enemy. Sometimes, of course, it's the other way around.

Yes, someone on G+ pointed out the rolling of initiative every round to me. That really does change things in combat. It also allows that poor enemy caster a chance to roll a higher initiative number and get some revenge.

Also, yes, I have seen that certain ranged weapons use the Strength bonus. That is a neat little rule, too. I've never used the missed ranged roll, but I might start. Thanks!

Hywaywolf wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:44 pm I have to go back and look but I am pretty sure you roll initiative every round so anyone who held his action would not be held to that the next round. (Init every round page 44)

The best thing about simultaneous action is the opportunity for PC and NPC to one shot each other. I was in a game where that happened. It was funny as a barrel of zombie monkeys. Maybe the fighter who died wasn't as amused but the rest of us were.

I don't know what you missed but many people forget that thrown weapons get the strengnth damage bonus/penalty even though they are range attacks.

Also, oil and holy water can hit someone else even when they miss. See grenade like missiles miss chart on page 47. Also, range weapons fired into melee that miss the intended target may hit someone else, even a party member.

True...perhaps if a thief wanted to backstab an opponent already engaged with someone else?

orobouros wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:40 pm If the order is Player A, Enemy, Player B, then Player A may delay until B is ready, so as to move to opposide sides of an enemy and attack at the same time. How this effects combat is up to the GM -- and a good GM will let this tactical decision play out in some way differently than a simple sequence of attacks.

So that means (if I understand correctly), that the spellcaster from my example who has a higher initiative can get the jump on the opposing spellcaster just once by delaying his initiative. He could attack the opposing caster and spoil the opposing caster's spell. However on subsequent rounds, both spellcasters would just acting simultaneously, and therefore their spells against one another would go off without a hitch. I really like this rule. So casters can't effectively attack anyone else except the opposing caster during this "wizard duel." Eventually, the casters would end up just whacking each other with their staffs!

Solomoriah wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:43 am I do allow players to hold an Initiative from round to round, without rerolling on subsequent rounds. However, if you wait to attack on another character's Initiative number (because, for example, you are waiting for that enemy to close with you), you act simultaneously... unless you have reach, in which case you act slightly before your enemy. Sometimes, of course, it's the other way around.

No, sorry, I allow a player to hold an UNUSED initiative from round to round... if a PC is waiting for the opponent to move, and the opponent doesn't move in one round, the PC can continue to wait for the opponent to move from round to round and take his or her action on whatever number the opponent moves on.

The Angry Monk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:03 pm Also, back to page 44 and Initiative:
"A character [and I would say monsters, too] using a weapon with a long reach (spears, for instance) may choose to attack a closing opponent on the closing opponent's [Initiative] number and thus attack simultaneously with the opponent, even if the character rolled lower for Initiative."

...

What other little nuggets of goodness have I missed? I'm going to test run the Brawling and Wrestling rules, too, because I think they would be fun to use in a game.

Since you've asked, here's something that hung me up for awhile.

I read that excerpt under Initiative and then this from page 45 and Set Weapon Against Charge:
"Spears, pole arms, and certain other piercing weapons deal double damage when “set” (braced against the ground or floor) and used against a charging creature. For this to be done, the character or creature being charged must have equal or better Initiative; this counts as holding an action: both attacker and defender act on the attacker's Initiative number and are therefore simultaneous."

Initially, I read "character...attack[s] simultaneously...even if...lower...Initiative" in one place and "character...must have equal or better Initiative" in another and was confused. I had to reread both several times (to my chagrin) before I realized the differences: a) "closing" is different from "charging" and b) "attacking" is different from "set against charge".