Sneak Attack

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Hywaywolf
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Re: Sneak Attack

Post Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:02 am

I would say the surprise round goes with the thief backstab attack. If the bad guys are not surprised they all get to attack the thief that round. Except the MU who died, but if he didn't die he gets to attack the same round.
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cbarchuk
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Re: Sneak Attack

Post Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:22 am

Hywaywolf wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:02 am
I would say the surprise round goes with the thief backstab attack. If the bad guys are not surprised they all get to attack the thief that round. Except the MU who died, but if he didn't die he gets to attack the same round.
Oh okay. So you're saying the backstab is the actual surprise round itself and is over right then and there.

-Thief backstabs MU who, again, falls over dead. Surprise is rolled...

If PCs are surprised then we began a normal combat round with everyone rolling initiative.

If PCs are NOT surprised, the PCs can now roll initiative and take actions. Does the thief or his Pals roll initiative at this point also?

I dunno. Seems to me you would roll for surprise after the backstab. If surprise is achieved then the surprise round would take place.
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cbarchuk
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Re: Sneak Attack

Post Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:23 pm

Let me quote a question made by someone else from Dragonsfoot forums that reflects exactly what I'm confused about here...

So lets say a thief has silently entered a dungeon room inhabited by an orc unnoticed. He successfully performs a backstab on the unsuspecting orc. The orc is injured but not dead. Would the orc have to make a surprise roll to see if the thief would get another chance to attack or would each side just roll initiative?

Someone responded with...

Well... really the surprise roll should have come in earlier on when he entered the room. :wink:

Basically, no.


This response makes no sense to me. Why would the thief roll for surprise as he's sneaking into the room? The Orc has no idea the thief is there. Seems to me the Orc is automatically surprised.

What say you?
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Hywaywolf
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Re: Sneak Attack

Post Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:45 pm

Thief does not get to attack twice in one round. The backstab starts round one. The opponent gets to act that round as well unless they are surprised. They won't be surprised in both the first and second round. Even if the rest of your party burst in at the start of round 2 they won't be surprised, although it may cause them to fail a moral check
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cbarchuk
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Re: Sneak Attack

Post Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:48 pm

Hywaywolf wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:45 pm
Thief does not get to attack twice in one round. The backstab starts round one. The opponent gets to act that round as well unless they are surprised. They won't be surprised in both the first and second round. Even if the rest of your party burst in at the start of round 2 they won't be surprised, although it may cause them to fail a moral check
When is the surprise roll made?
Last edited by cbarchuk on Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hywaywolf
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Re: Sneak Attack

Post Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:57 pm

A sneak attack is not a "surprise" attack. He doesn't even know you are there until the blade sinks in. So he wasn't frozen in shock when you attacked, he just wasn't defending against an attack he didn't know was coming. Once you poke him though he can certainly become surprised such that he doesn't return the attack that round. Keep in mind that the other orcs on the rom can also attack your thief on that first round if they aren't surprised

As to the second question, how can the orc be surprised if he didn't see or hear you as you attempt to sneak in. And if he did see you he still can't be surprised because you aren't attacking him.
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cbarchuk
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Re: Sneak Attack

Post Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:59 pm

Hywaywolf wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:57 pm
A sneak attack is not a "surprise" attack. He doesn't even know you are there until the blade sinks in. So he wasn't frozen in shock when you attacked, he just wasn't defending against an attack he didn't know was coming. Once you poke him though he can certainly become surprised such that he doesn't return the attack that round. Keep in mind that the other orcs on the rom can also attack your thief on that first round if they aren't surprised

As to the second question, how can the orc be surprised if he didn't see or hear you as you attempt to sneak in. And if he did see you he still can't be surprised because you aren't attacking him.
Okay so the surprise roll would come after the backstab?
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Dimirag
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Re: Sneak Attack

Post Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm

That is up to you as the gm, if you consider the attack to be an auto-surprise then no roll is needed, the thief acted, the victim didn't due to surprise, rounds ends (considering no other individuals are present), roll for initiative.

Things change if you consider there is a chance for surprise after the attack so that the victim if not dead nor surprise can retaliate. Then you roll after the attack if the victim is still alive.

You would only roll before the, attack if you are giving extra benefits on a surprise attack such as extra bonuses, damage, assassination skills, etc.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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cbarchuk
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Re: Sneak Attack

Post Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:19 pm

Dimirag wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
That is up to you as the gm, if you consider the attack to be an auto-surprise then no roll is needed, the thief acted, the victim didn't due to surprise, rounds ends (considering no other individuals are present), roll for initiative.

Things change if you consider there is a chance for surprise after the attack so that the victim if not dead nor surprise can retaliate. Then you roll after the attack if the victim is still alive.

You would only roll before the, attack if you are giving extra benefits on a surprise attack such as extra bonuses, damage, assassination skills, etc.
Thanks. I think that clears up my confusion. I'm not sure why this wracked my brain so much but I just had a hard time understanding it. Normally surprise is rolled when the PCs encounter monsters. But for some reason I just couldn't quite wrap my head around how this applies to a lone thief ambushing a helpless Orc. Anyways thanks again for your patience Dimirag and Hywaywolf. Sorry for being so dimwitted. :lol:
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Hywaywolf
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Re: Sneak Attack

Post Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:33 pm

Tell a PC that he was just stabbed in the back and that he is surprised, "No, John, you can't fight back this round. No, your MU doesn't get to roll for surprise. Well it was obvious to me that you were surprised."

John will say, "On page 43 it says 'Characters or creatures which are well hidden and prepared to perform an ambush surprise on a roll of 1-4 on 1d6.' It doesn't say its automatic"
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