Healing Option

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Metroknight
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Re: Healing Option

Post Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:36 pm

Solomoriah wrote:Okay, Metro, I have to ask...
Metroknight wrote:When I houseruled this ability into some of my games years ago, I tried this method but discarded it after a while. This was due to it breaking the "keep it simple" rule.

My method was simple and did not overshadow the spells that a cleric received but complemented them.
So... wait, what? It broke the "keep it simple" rule, but your "method was simple." Not sure I understand why you dropped it.
It was how the dice pool was being implemented that made it more complicated. Say you had a 10 dice pool, you would have to decide how much to use, is it applicable to the same character for the same wounds if the dice rolled low or does the remaining dice have to be used on new wounds then there is how much or how fast do you regain the dice for the pool.

There were other aspects that I was considering during this experiment in my games but they were just specific for certain games so they are nothing to be concerned about.

The more simpler way I finally went was just to treat lay on hands ability as a class ability similar to cure light wounds and usable once a day every third level (once/day till 4th level then it went to twice a day and so on).
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Hywaywolf
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Re: Healing Option

Post Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:05 pm

A DM could solve this problem by simply adding more healing potions to their game. If you want your Cleric to stop being the guy that applies band-aids then let others carry some band-aids and the cleric can use his power for higher level stuff.
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The Angry Monk
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Re: Healing Option

Post Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:44 pm

Hywaywolf wrote:A DM could solve this problem by simply adding more healing potions to their game. If you want your Cleric to stop being the guy that applies band-aids then let others carry some band-aids and the cleric can use his power for higher level stuff.
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Dimirag
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Re: Healing Option

Post Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:18 pm

The problem with relying on outside sources like healing potions is that in some adventures they will be weird to find it.
The main idea is to keep the cleric as the healer while freeing his spells for other uses.
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Hywaywolf
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Re: Healing Option

Post Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:36 pm

I am not up on spell balance by characters, but what is the difference between giving a "lay on hands" once a day and just giving the cleric another spell slot. If a cleric already has multiple spell slots and are stocking up on healing spells why wouldn't he still stock up on heal spells even if he had an extra lay on hands?

I guess the question I am asking is, For the people who have used any sort of "lay on hands" did it actually result in a cleric routinely using more non-healing spells?

edit: also, what kind of adventure where a PC can get injured and would allow magical laying on of hands to heal wouldn't have a chance of finding a heal pot or rod of healing
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Dimirag
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Re: Healing Option

Post Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:54 pm

The idea is to remove the healing spells, so, a cleric could not stock on healing spells and has to use other spells, the healing power is to not remove their healing capabilities.

When I'm playing with my Paladin, the Cleric lowers the amount of healing spells as he can choose other spells and help in manners that the paladin can't.

A party is going from point A to point B thru a unknown forest, the travel will be a couple of weeks, they get attacked by wild animals, should the forest have healing potions around to be found? should the animals have any on them?

The party has reached an island out of time, filled with dinosaurs and other animals but no humanoids, perhaps some cavemen with 0 magic knowledge, again, should there be any potion around?

Plus, any setting where potions and magic items are scarce and really valuable.

If you use a set mechanic for a class or for the whole game then no extra mod is needed from the start, if you rely on potions you'll have to manage the amount you give on each session.
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Hywaywolf
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Re: Healing Option

Post Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:10 pm

maybe they had some pots left from their last adventure before they set out. And yes, if a 3 week trip through a forest has enough danger to TPK a party every other day then there can be healing plants there, or some other traveling party wiped out by wild animals might have had healing pots on them. And that dinosaur island shouldn't have any magic items at all if it can't have heal pots. And again, healing plants that the natives have learned to distill.

I am still interested in just how much free healing do you have to give a cleric before they start regularly using non-healing magic. If you have a mechanic that heals so much a day you still have to manage how much you throw at a party or make sure the cleric doesn't die.
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Clever_Munkey
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Re: Healing Option

Post Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:12 pm

Hywaywolf wrote:A DM could solve this problem by simply adding more healing potions to their game. If you want your Cleric to stop being the guy that applies band-aids then let others carry some band-aids and the cleric can use his power for higher level stuff.
In my experience most groups will still prepare healing spells so that they can take even more abuse before stopping. The reason is pretty simple. Even if prevention is better than the cure, (no pun intended) healing is a very versatile way of preventing death if alternate death rules are used, and is always a way of extending the depth they can delve.

Going through the first level list:

Cure Light Wounds heals 2-7 hp to any party member, which is a significant amount for any level one character.

Detect Evil provides information that might prevent death.
Detect Good is situationally useful probably won't prevent death.

Detect Magic provides information that might prevent death.

Light disables one opponent (if they remember that it can be used that way).
Darkness is potentially useful if enemies can't see in the dark, and the party has some way of fighting in the dark. Also works as light.

Protection From Evil requires that the enemy is evil (different discussion), but is otherwise good at what it does for one person.
Protection From Good pretty much villains only.

Purify Food and Water prevents death if starving, and is a (long term) way of extending their stay, but requires that the party have no food, or be on a *very* long trip.

Remove Fear prevents an ally from being forced to flee. Requires that the enemy is causing fear somehow.
Cause Fear forces one enemy to flee.

Resist Cold Significantly reduces damage, but doesn't prevent it, and only if that damage is cold.

Without alternate death rules CLW loses some usefulness, specifically when the character is at 0 hp, but it will still be used on low health allies, because it can take a lot of time to regain health, and the other spells are still maybes.

I'm not trying to say that the other spells are too weak, or that CLW is too strong, just that the other spells require more information to be useful, and CLW allows players to make more mistakes.

Note: Poison is a common save or die effect which has no early level spells to help prevent it. If the GM wanted to add detect poison it would be a strong contender, but again it still "only" might prevent death. Similarly Bless/Bane was traditionally a first level spell (maybe a different discussion), Bless allows the party to kill things faster, while bane make enemies kill things slower. All +/-1 to attack or AC is effectively a change in average damage of 5%.

In regards to the issue of how many uses:
5E gives a paladin 5 hp divided as chosen per level per day. They may expend 5 hp of healing to neutralize poison or disease.

I think "clerics can heal [level]d6 hp per day dividing the # of d6s as desired with full restore of all d6s when the cleric normally prepares spells, and remove all cure spells" sounds perfectly fair.
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Hywaywolf
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Re: Healing Option

Post Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:25 pm

Clever_Munkey wrote:
Hywaywolf wrote:A DM could solve this problem by simply adding more healing potions to their game. If you want your Cleric to stop being the guy that applies band-aids then let others carry some band-aids and the cleric can use his power for higher level stuff.
In my experience most groups will still prepare healing spells so that they can take even more abuse before stopping. The reason is pretty simple. Even if prevention is better than the cure, (no pun intended) healing is a very versatile way of preventing death if alternate death rules are used, and is always a way of extending the depth they can delve.
That was what I was trying to say. Players want to be healed more than just about anything else. How many opportunities for healing (be they spell slots or lay on hands) will be enough if you are in a battle and people are dying while the cleric has detect evil and light available. Unless you add something like 4E's seemingly endless healing (which I hated) I don't see clerics ever giving up filling their slots with healing spells unless they know for a fact they will need one of the other ones.

If you want those other spells to be used then create a "cleric" that has no healing capabilities but still has everything else plus a little more to make up for lack of healing.
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Clever_Munkey
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Re: Healing Option

Post Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:54 pm

I understood your original statement as saying: Make no changes, just give more healing potions.

Do you mean remove all cure spells, and give more healing potions as compensation? As stated above there are some issues with this though. Yes they could just find palette swapped healing potions (herbs, et al.), but there are other problems with that outside of theme, tone, setting. It is still a valid option, but takes away a feature that makes a cleric a cleric. I suspect it would drastically change the amount the party was capable of healing without careful oversight. It would need play testing.

By the way here is a chart of the average damage healed. It does not take the Heal spell into account. It's too hard to calculate, and I'm not sure if it would be removed. The second column is without mixing spell levels. The fourth column is with mixing spell levels. The fifth column is using the rules as I proposed them. I miscounted somewhere in the red section, but it's obvious that healing potential is very high.
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