Creature Saving Throws

[SGTDave]

How do I roll a saving throw for a creature? For example, a PC casts the spell Sleep against 4 goblins. The goblins should attempt a vs. spells saving throw. But what is the target number? There are no saving throw values in the monster descriptions.

[Hexamer47]

In the monster descriptions, there is a heading for "Save as:". For goblins it would be save as: Fighter 1. Which would mean the goblin has the same saves a first level fighter would have. In this case with the goblins they would have a save against spells at 17.

[SGTDave]

Ah. Thank you. I see that now. I don't like it, but at least I know what the rule is. I don't like because I have to look up the monster, then I have to look up the fighter table.

Does anyone just ditch the saving throw tables in BFRPG, and just use WILL/FORT/REFLEX with ability modifiers like D20/DCC?

In the monster descriptions, there is a heading for "Save as:". For goblins it would be save as: Fighter 1. Which would mean the goblin has the same saves a first level fighter would have. In this case with the goblins they would have a save against spells at 17.

[Dimirag]

There is a supplement that deals with that ST style

[Clever_Munkey]

A quick rule of thumb is that monsters save as a fighter with level equal to the HD of the monster. If you remember little else you should remember the HD because most of the other statistics are based off of it. That said I keep the saving throw tables on the inside of my GM screen for this particular reason.

[Longman]

Does anyone just ditch the saving throw tables in BFRPG, and just use WILL/FORT/REFLEX with ability modifiers like D20/DCC?

No, because that would involve assigning stats or W/F/R values for every creature. Easier just to say that such a creature saves as a fighter, or another class, of its HD value.

Save vs spells is clearly supposed to be hard because otherwise PC and NPC spells would fail too often. Spell-casting in combat is tough enough so therefore harder to save against, if you can pull it off.

Save vs. wands is easier - they are multiple use, and you can see it coming when the item is wielded.

Dragon Breath is tough because they are a key 'named' monster and surviving that isn't easy. P&P is also hard- don't mess with a Gorgon lightly. Death and Poison is easier, to avoid too many PC deaths, unless the save is really bad against those.

Saves as class-based rather than stats-based are good, IMO. A 1st level MU saves vs spells on an 15, but a fighter only on a 17. Over the course of a game, that difference is noticeable. The MU knows stuff, the fighter doesn't.

[Dimirag]

No, because that would involve assigning stats or W/F/R values for every creature. Easier just to say that such a creature saves as a fighter, or another class, of its HD value.

I kinda disagree, you don't need to create a F/R/W save for each creature, just for the base classes and then use the corresponding one.

If you say that a 1st level Fighters has a say, 13/13/16 for its FRW saves then every 1HD creature will save using those values.
Abilities mods can be ditched or used on specific cases.

[Clever_Munkey]

No, because that would involve assigning stats or W/F/R values for every creature. Easier just to say that such a creature saves as a fighter, or another class, of its HD value.

I kinda disagree, you don't need to create a F/R/W save for each creature, just for the base classes and then use the corresponding one.

If you say that a 1st level Fighters has a say, 13/13/16 for its FRW saves then every 1HD creature will save using those values.
Abilities mods can be ditched or used on specific cases.

But that's not how that system normally works. It could work that way of course, but I'd have to think more about it.

I've always liked the 3-save system, because it's easy to know what each save is for, but hated it because I have to keep track of DCs (or make one up). The inverse applies for the 5-save system.

Maybe this is a good compromise, but it feels like it lacks granularity, and giving everything a specific bonus or penalty sort of defeats the purpose.

[Dimirag]

But that's not how that system normally works.

It does if you use the BF supplement

[Clever_Munkey]

But that's not how that system normally works.

It does if you use the BF supplement

I knew this would come up. I should clarify: That's not how that system normally works in D20.

Anyway it still has the problem with granularity. I think. I don't know. It's a deep on-going personal struggle for me that can only be solved with meditation, mathematics, and of course playing games.