Saving & Skill Rolls Explained!

[Babarock]

I am unable to run a game session with confidence because of (what could be) a lack of clarity, not only in the rules, but in available online resources that I've been sifting through. Unless a character is whacking at an enemy or actually dodging out of the way of a 'death ray' or 'dragons breath', there seems to be no predictable way to determine the outcome of more than 50% of role-playing opportunities like jumping, swimming, climbing, perceiving, balancing and the like. The are no skills or feats (not that I miss them) and no 'ability-based skill checks' in BFRPG. The optional rules on page 141 are the only guidance offered for the 'everything else covered here' category and a 'single number covers everybody in every situation' approach just seems oversimplified.

Suppose a thief and a fighter spring a pit trap and then figure out a way to lay an old plank across the pit (which is 10' wide). The thief decides to do the DEX thing and balance across the plank, but the fighter decides against risking his weight and tries a bounding leap after a short running start. A reasonable and common fantasy scenario. I understand that if either fail, a save is in order to prevent half of the damage from the fall. I don't understand why that save would be called a 'death ray' save when any one of a dozen other intuitive titles could be chosen, but fine ('cause Gary says so). A reasonable description of the meaning behind the 5-fold saving rolls is greatly needed and would be very much appreciated.

First, we must determine whether the characters, each with his own skill set, even fail at all. Since 'balancing' is not listed among the thief skills (curious), what does the thief roll to balance across the plank? Further, what kind of mechanic covers the possibility of the board snapping under his weight totally independent of the thief's skill? When the fighter makes his leap, I would give a bonus for having the presence of mind to get a running start, but what check is made to determine whether he has the STR to clear the gap and then the DEX to land gracefully? I mean, these moments are the life blood of an adventure game!

I love the BFRPG system and respect the OD&D minutia. I do not want to depart from 'whats in the book' or doubt the veracity of over 40 years of use and rules evolution. I don't mind clearly defined house rules, but I hate guessing, game pausing and arbitrary assignments because of ignorance or lack of planning. I also believe strongly in one character having an edge over another based on the strengths (and weaknesses) that the players have decided to adopt for them. I'm at the end of my rope on this one. Someone please advise!

PS - Thanks, Chris and the gang, for all your hard work!

[Dimirag]

One of the founding stones of OSR is GM room to make any decision on mechanics.

Death ray for some is like a dodging action, to others is like a body shock resistance (that is why it is in the poison row). It is not a "roll out" of the way or "roll with the punch" but a "shrug off internal damage" kind of thing.

There are lots of way to determine actions like jumping, running, climbing, etc, it largely depends on the game style and rules preference of each GM.

Some GMs use the 5 savings only for those 5 things and use other mechanics for other things.

First, we must determine whether the characters, each with his own skill set, even fail at all. Since 'balancing' is not listed among the thief skills (curious), what does the thief roll to balance across the plank?

Just because a "skill" does not appear in a class description does not means is out of the class, if you think Thieves should be better at balancing then take that into consideration into whatever the thief do that requires balance.

Further, what kind of mechanic covers the possibility of the board snapping under his weight totally independent of the thief's skill?

Whatever mechanic you like, you can think on what kind of board they are using, how much the thief weight and consider is there is a breaking chance (form 1-X in 6 chances to % roll or whatever you like).

When the fighter makes his leap, I would give a bonus for having the presence of mind to get a running start, but what check is made to determine whether he has the STR to clear the gap and then the DEX to land gracefully?

Again, the mechanic you like, you can take his movement rate which uses both his str and carried weight and modify it based on race (elves high better, dwarves and halfling worst) and any helping action like running.

The optional rules on page 141 are the only guidance offered for the 'everything else covered here' category and a 'single number covers everybody in every situation' approach just seems oversimplified.

They are intended that way to provide room for you to add what you want, maybe the thief adds a +5 bonus when doing DEX roll or "thief-like skills" or double his level, or other classes halve it.

As Solo says "is easier to add something than to take it away", if the core rules came with rules for every action possible, or an unifying mechanic or tables for material resistance based on weight applied it would be hard for most GMs to play without them, but the BFRPG, as is, gives the great flexibility to add things as needed.

Finally: One great rule used thru the book is the 1 in 6 chances which can be modified greatly.
Balance:
- 1 in 6 chances of falling, those with a negative DEX modifier increase the chances bu that amount.
- 1 in 6 chances of not falling, the chances are increased by the DEX bonus, thieves adds a +1 or +2.
Jumping:
- 1 in 6 chances of falling, those with a negative STR modifier increase the chances bu that amount.
- 1 in 6 chances of not falling, the chances are increased by the STR bonus.
Other "skills"... you get the picture

[Babarock]

Thanks, Demirag, for your fast and thoughtful reply. I've developed more than one original, compete RPG system from scratch. Like most GM's, I can cook up game mechanics on the fly with the best of them. But I want to play BFRPG. Further, I want to fully understand the rules, as they stand, before feeling like I've got to build my own custom mechanics for so huge an aspect of the game.

I have found the multi d6 attribute check technique, the d20 attribute technique, the added attribute vs. DC technique and the reflex/fortitude/will technique, among others, including of course the single-table DC by level technique (page 141) and now the 'x out of 6' technique that you described. I'de just like to settle on one overarching system that puts all the possibilities to the test with one mechanic that is popularized by users of this RPG. I don't want to give up the saving throws handed down to us by Lord Gygax, but I DO want to understand them better.

I really appreciate your definition of the 'death ray' save. I have been hard pressed to find anything online that lays out the definition of the saving throws in any way. It seems that everybody kind of sees them the way they want to. I can't think of another game that works like this. If I sat down to play chess and insisted that the rook moves in circles, I would be universally drummed off the table. (haha) Is there anyone (or anywhere) that can expound on the 5 saving throws and what they each encompass?

I just don't want to feel like I'm making stuff up as I go. I'm the GM. I'm every personality, monster and voice, the weather, the creaks in the floor, the twists in the story, the improvisational narrator that doles out every little sensual detail live as it happens. I enjoy the game as a referee, anticipating the random twists and inspired moments in the story that everyone at the table contributes to. I don't wanna be stuffed in a box, but I would like basic, systemic processes, which can be committed to habit, that determine common outcomes in a fair and repeatable manner. That's the whole point of having a rulebook, right?

So, why is everything in the game layed out except for this clearly needed mechanic which we are supposed to cook up ourselves? How can I make a 'decision on mechanics' when there's no mechanic to start with?

[Togo Galthus]

It seems that everybody kind of sees them the way they want to. I can't think of another game that works like this. If I sat down to play chess and insisted that the rook moves in circles, I would be universally drummed off the table. (haha)

I think this is the crux of the matter. If one expect a game with a set of rules that is once and for all established, generally known and agreed upon before one sits down at an random BFRPG table, then the rules at that table will be very confusing.

If one would like to compare this RPG with chess, it would rather be like this: “Hello, I am the GM. In this game of basic fantasy chess the rook may move in circles, and the king is able to levitate – in case you didn’t know that already.” You would not hear a chess tournament referee say something like that.

But when it comes right down to it I think it is a matter of temperament, whether rules for how many elfs it takes to break a plank or how many yards a dwarf must run to jump a certain distance is urgent, or only gets in the way of the story.

When there’s a challenge (jumping, balancing, throwing a grappling hook, winning a game of cards, and so forth), depending on circumstances I usually ask the player how he or she tries to overcome the challenge, and – usually – ask him or her to throw dice against some ability or other.

For instance, say that my players’ characters want to climb a tree. I would then say, for instance, that the thief does not have to throw a die, the elf throws against dexterity and the plate clad dwarf gets a modified throw.

It’s very quick and sometimes I don’t ask them to throw any dice. If there’s a challenge and they come up with a solution (to bridge that gap, for instance), then fine, you made it.

Personally I prefer this above rules heavy games where they go: “We try this!” and I say: “Oh, I’m sure there are rules how to solve this, let me wade through my books.” And they go: “So… did anybody catch the game yesterday?”

But that is me, that is how I like to run a game – not how a game should be run.

As for the question of saving throws. In principal, I use saving throws when there’s an sudden, unexpected danger – trap or poison for instance – or when someone is casting a spell at the character (as per the description of the spell in question).
Which saving throw to use? I really don’t sweat it. Think metaphorically: Is it something that reminds you of dragon’s fire (for instance, the flames from a fire trap), then perhaps againt dragon breath?; is it sudden, directed and deadly energy of one kind of another – why not death ray? It’s up to the GM, there’s no saving throw canon that I am aware of.

You write: “It seems that everybody kind of sees them the way they want to.” Yes, pretty much: It’s the individual GM:s game; he or she uses the rulebook as solid foundation to create his or her own game, that hopefully (most of the time “apparantly”) his or her players enjoy.

It is a sort of “roll with it” type of gaming, I think. If this is not what one wants from a game then personally I wouldn’t try to tweak BFRPG into something it isn’t, but check out one of the numerous “modern” fanatsy games instead. But all this is only my opinion and my thoughts on the matter.

[chiisu81]

There's a thread on RPGnet that's along these lines as well. I'm sure there's been others on there and Dragonsfoot.

I first see if I can use a relevant save, as it's something that scales with character level and can reflect their experiences and possible training as they level up.

If I think an attribute check may be more relevant, I'll use that and may apply modifier(s) depending on their class, race, and the situation itself.

If neither of those work or I just honestly don't think it warrants much brainpower, I'll use the good old "roll a dX" and I'll have a target number in mind they need to roll above/under.

[Dimirag]

I don't want to give up the saving throws handed down to us by Lord Gygax, but I DO want to understand them better.

AD&D has a description for them, but they are slightly modified categories.

For some GMs the categories represent specific attack modes, while for other they are specific defensive reactions. IIRC the intro adventure of D&D used a ST vs poison against a giant snake and said that a successful ST implied the character moving in a way that the snake's fang didn't reach his body.

The way I see it:
-Death Ray and Poison: Internal damage, system shock, sudden death, maybe damage that ignore HP... Represents endurance, stamina, physical resilience.
-Magic Wands: Any effect coming from a magical device.
-Paralysis and Petrify: Anything that privies the character from moving. A combo of physical and mental strength resistance maybe? It makes for a nice replacement for surprise rolls as it makes higher level character less susceptible to ambushes.
-Dragon Breath: Any attack or success that covers a big area. Dodging, blocking, getting out of the way...
-Spells: As the name says.

The thing is that no matter what description you create for them you'll find things that don't add up, like Thieves and MUs having the same save vs spell values, or that a fireball calls for a ST vs Spell.

If I sat down to play chess and insisted that the rook moves in circles, I would be universally drummed off the table. (haha)?

Comparing BF with chess, the chessbook will tell you how the rook moves, but not what you can do with it in every situation, same for BF, it gives you what to the author are the fundamental things that will appear almost every time.

I don't wanna be stuffed in a box, but I would like basic, systemic processes, which can be committed to habit, that determine common outcomes in a fair and repeatable manner.

BF is the opposite of a systemic game, it gives you the basics of the most used inside the game, everything else is up to the gm so he can tailor the kind of game he wishes, putting one mechanic as a core rule will make that every other rule (even the ones made by the GM on the fly) follow that one rule, and that diminish the freedom given to the GMs. GMs prefering unified rules will end up creating those rules. [/quote]

That's the whole point of having a rulebook, right?

While the point of a rulebook is having rules, is a matter of gamestyle what kind of rules it will cover. Sometimes the more you give, the more you take.

So, why is everything in the game layed out except for this clearly needed mechanic which we are supposed to cook up ourselves? How can I make a 'decision on mechanics' when there's no mechanic to start with?

Is everything layed? Really? Everything but the rule to cover everything...
There are lots of mechanics, attack rolls, thief skills, saving throws, surprise... each one is a mechanic for you to choose and use as you please.
In over 5 years playing I have never had to roll to jump something...

[Babarock]

Thank you, Demirag, Togo Galthus and chiisu81 for your thoughts and especially for your well-defined perception of saving throws. I will also check out the threads at rpg.net. This has been my first post here and its nice to see the community alive and interactive. I don't feel I have this wrapped up yet, but I hope I'm not trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I guess, ultimately, I'll just have to make something up. I really like the 2d6/3d6/4d6 vs. Attribute method (although I prefer cliffhanger rolls to be made by d20). It allows an easy mechanism for the GM to quickly assign easy/normal/heroic difficulty and yet still custom-conform to a pertinent attribute allowing for finesse and bonuses. Its a little more fexible, individualized and specific than the 'one size fits all' ability roll table.

For the record, I really dislike most 'encyclopedic' modern rpg systems like Pathfinder. My experience is that you spend more time looking up charts and debating over minutia than telling a story. Its well suited to those with OCD. I love Basic Fantasy and have invested everything into the system to revitalize my gaming, teaching it to my kids.

Just had this one issue. By the way, the example I set up in the opening post? That situation actually occurred at the table just the other day. I ruled that both the balancing act and the jump were automatic successes to keep the story moving, then felt like we had cheated.

[Dimirag]

Why cheated? Bot characters overcome an obstacle via roleplaying and smart decisions, unless the gap was a mayor obstacle that could end in some characters death requiring rolls and such then it was well played.
You've just learned an important part of OSRPG, GM progress, you rule something that you don't think is ok, next time you'll do it differently, both players GMs make mistakes and by learning from them you become a better gamer.

[Longman]

I use the d20 mechanic on page 141 for most things you (the OP) have mentioned like swimming and running and so on.

I sometimes vary the DC. 17 is hard. 12 is medium. 7 is easy. 22 is very hard.

In most cases below hard (17) I wouldn't even bother making them roll. They succeed in medium and easy tasks because they are adventurers. Therefore, if you think the fighter and the thief can just get across the plank, they get across. That isn't cheating. (As far as I am concerned, cheating is where you decide to roll the dice and then ignore what they say.)

For perception, I say that a normal character has a 15% chance of hearing a distant or quiet noise, and a thief has more (30% at start). This is modeled on the chance to find traps, which is also about 15% percent for a normal character and considerably more for a thief. I give elves a +5% bonus on hearing checks because their description says they have good hearing. Dwarves find traps 30% of the time.

I use the chance to find secret door as a chance to find any really well hidden object or item and as a general measure of the character's ability to spot tricks or unusual features of the environment. For most it is 1 in 6, for elves and dwarves and gnomes, 2 in 6.

For doors and some other strength feats, I use the 1 in 6 plus the ability bonus, increasing the dice size the reflect the difficulty of the challenge. That's an exception for me. I usually use the d20 system for other checks.

I totally agree that it is good to have a unified system for all this. But remember you are dealing with a game that has an extremely wide customer demographic and is designed to cater to a wide range of play styles. There are veteran players on here who have come back to Basic because they got sick of the tediousness and unnecessary crunch of games like Pathfinder. Then there are games involving newbie teenagers (some of whom apparently have OCD!) who have never played RPGs before. The game has to be flexible.

If I were you I'd pick the d20 attribute checks as your core style (rolling high = good), and set DC 17 as the standard for level 1. (If it isn't 'hard', don't make them roll). Use saving throws for just what they are intended for and nothing else. And, do whatever you can with perception, which is just tough in all RPGs and always has been.

But like I said, it really depends on who you are DMing for.

All the best.

[Babarock]

Thanks, Longman, for your practical advise and playing style. I will definitely consider it for my own. I especially like how everything you apply to the game is either an interpretation or an offshoot of stuff that comes directly out of the core rules book. You've obviously put some thought into it.

When I first saw the simple 'ability roll' chart, I wrinkled my brow in amazement of its simplicity and figured it was an afterthought to handle 'everything else'. But you've successfully employed it and I respect that. I also appreciate your definition of 'cheating'.

All in all, I'll be printing this entire thread to round out the last loose threat in my GM style for BFRPG. I sincerely hope that it will help anyone else who ran into the same snafu as many and varied opinions, perspectives and styles have been brought to the table here. Thanks again to the creators of this excellent OSR system and for maintaining such a great community and pool of resources.