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Re: Time & Searching
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:55 am
by The Angry Monk
I posted this on another forum
but it might help explain why I want to do this.
I think a little up front work by me the DM would make searching go faster. I could say to players, "The room is 30' X 30'. It appears empty. How thorough a search would you like to make?" The players could tell me how much time they'd spend searching, I could roll for encounters, tell them what they find, and on we go.
In the old way:
Player #1: I will search for secret doors.
DM: OK, the room is 30' X 30". Where do search?
Player #1: Well...everywhere!
DM: OK, well, you need to be specific. You point to a wall and I'll roll.
Player #1: I'll start here.
DM: (roll) You find nothing.
Player #1: Here.
DM: (roll) Nope.
Player #1: Here?
DM: (roll) Nada....
So and so forth until Player #1 searches every 10' surface (floors and ceilings, too) and finds absolutely nothing.
Then Player #2 pipes up: Hey, I'm an elf. I have a better chance of finding secret doors. I'll search, too.
DM: OK, where do you look?
Player #2: Here.
DM: (roll) You find nothing.
Player #2: Here.
DM: (roll) Nothing...
I think my search value for rooms speeds up the search, focuses on time as a resource, and still allows players to find secret doors and such that are valuable to the plot. The other way to go is to never have secret doors or only use them to hide rooms of no real importance (and then why bother if they're not important?).
Re: Time & Searching
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:15 am
by Dimirag
The Angry Monk wrote:I could say to the players, "What kind of search would you like to do? Cursory? Fair? Thorough?" Then a cursory search has a value of 0.1, a fair search, has a value of 0.5, and a thorough search has a value of 1.0. If the characters do a thorough search, they find all the secrets (they don't automatically figure out how to open the doors or compartments). However, every 3 turns (in BFRPG), I'm doing a monster check and their light sources are burning lower.
How do the search values work? I thought they where for time managing, but it seems to be used for results managing.
If the group does a cursory search will they find 0.1 of whatever there is to find?
You have gave an example of how things normally works, can you give us an example of how you want them to work?
One final thing, don't ask the player how thorough their search will be, don't even ask if they are searching
Re: Time & Searching
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:22 am
by The Angry Monk
Dimirag wrote:The Angry Monk wrote:I could say to the players, "What kind of search would you like to do? Cursory? Fair? Thorough?" Then a cursory search has a value of 0.1, a fair search, has a value of 0.5, and a thorough search has a value of 1.0. If the characters do a thorough search, they find all the secrets (they don't automatically figure out how to open the doors or compartments). However, every 3 turns (in BFRPG), I'm doing a monster check and their light sources are burning lower.
How do the search values work? I thought they where for time managing, but it seems to be used for results managing.
If the group does a cursory search will they find 0.1 of whatever there is to find?
You have gave an example of how things normally works, can you give us an example of how you want them to work?
One final thing, don't ask the player how thorough their search will be, don't even ask if they are searching
Well, the result is time. If you take a look at what I'd written before, each room would take a certain amount of time to search based on its size. So if the characters only do a cursory search (perhaps they are being chased or they are running out of light), they would spend one-tenth of the total time and perhaps only discover one thing. However, if they wish to spend the total designated time doing a thorough search, then they would find all the hidden items, but the trade-off is that they are using up resources and taking more chances with wandering monsters. The players have to decide on the trade-off.
Finally, I wouldn't ask the players if their characters search. I would only ask how thorough they would like to search if they say they are searching (just as I outlined in my example).
Re: Time & Searching
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:50 am
by Dimirag
In your example (the last one) you give the "How thorough a search would you like to make?" as part of the room description, that's why I said what I said. But lets focus on the search.
The players will tell you where they search and for how long, if on a same searched place there are more than one object and the search is not a full one, how do you determine what is found?
That could mean that there is another factor to take into account: the hidden stuff.
So, your method has to combine: The amount of searchers in the room + the attention put while searching + the size of the room + the amount of thing hidden in the room.
My question remains: If the room is searched as a whole unit, how do you select what is being found on each kind of search?
Unless you want to make the whole party search during the same amount of time on one specific spot at a time.
Lets put the following example:
The group enters a 30x40 room, there are a couple of paintings on the wall, two couches with a small table between them, an some furniture.
Lets say there is some hidden stuff around the place (a door, some gold and gems). How would you resolve each kind of search?
Re: Time & Searching
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:07 pm
by The Angry Monk
Let me chew on this for awhile and see if I can come up with something that works.
Re: Time & Searching
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:56 am
by The Angry Monk
Bargle on Dragonsfoot forum suggested an idea
Torchbearer and Dungeon World (modern, narrative take on B/X) posits a fix: searching a room is always a success. Meaning, a single throw of the dice, no matter the roll, high or low, finds anything secret that might be there. The success or failure of the roll only determines if a complication arises from the search.
Example: a player has a 1 in 6 chance of finding a secret door. The player rolls a 2+ and fails the roll. The DM reveals the hidden door in the room, but because the roll was a failure, he includes a "twist". It could be an automatic wandering monster encounter, a trap going off, torches being blown out etc. this is called "failing forward" so that failing dice rolls don't stymie and halt the adventure. This can be done for any skill. A failed pick lock would still open the lock, but the DM would introduce a twist of some sort ("your lock picks break!") as the price failure.
This maintains a resource management calculus on the players part without the tedious grind of searching every square or the truly hideous "take 10" of 3E.
So I DMed a game last night in which a player had to do a pick lock check. She failed, so I said that the lock opened but she had to make a save vs. poison for the undetected needle on the lock (she didn't check for traps). She saved and I probably would have only deducted some hit points if she hadn't made the save. I liked that result and it added some suspense when she had to make the saving throw. Thanks for the idea, Bargle!
I thought that this idea kept the game going but again allows the players a choice.
Re: Time & Searching
Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:08 pm
by Blazeguard
I love that idea. As an inexperienced DM I've really struggled with this. I am going to start using this.
Re: Time & Searching
Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:11 pm
by Dimirag
I though the idea was to remove the random factor and to put Time Management at the top of the searching procedure, but that suggested method don't satisfy that and adds another random element.
Re: Time & Searching
Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:59 pm
by The Angry Monk
Blazeguard wrote:I love that idea. As an inexperienced DM I've really struggled with this. I am going to start using this.
Yes, I like it, too. The low-level thief still feels that he or she has contributed, but until he or she becomes really proficient, then there will be consequences. Really this rule could be used for any skill check.