Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

LordHawk wrote:

Longman wrote:I like the d8 rule for fighters provided it is modified so they get max HP at 1st level. I think it works OK.

I'm more bothered by d4 for thieves - which I expect to be somewhat more engaged in combat than wizards. I had completely forgotten that about OD and D. It surprised me when I read Basic Fantasy for the first time.

I like the idea of having a 'tough' thief class that gets 1d6 instead of 1d4, for a greater exp cost.

I agree, I picture mages training their minds over their bodies, I picture thieves more like gymnasts, not super strong but super nimble

Nimble is reflected in dexterity. Being nimble means you might be harder to hit, but not necessarily "tougher" - as in being able to take more damage (hit points). Thats why my thieves always have their bonuses in dex - harder to hit, quicker to react (get out of melee quicker ) and better at distance weapons so I don't have to stand toe to toe.

Longman wrote:[I guess this really matters most at 1st level. By the time you have 5000 exp you would have 4d4 (average 10)*. The wizard would still have 2d4 (average 5) and the cleric 3d6 (11), while the fighter is on 3d8 (13). So the thief does quite well if they take enough care.
* That's not using max hp at 1st level.

The low XP requirement helps a thief with his Hit Points at lower levels.

I see d4HD classes as "normal" in physical conditions, clerics have a little training and fighters have the most physical training.
Thieves climb by quick movements and almost acrobatic maneuvers instead of sheer strength. Thieves at their initial levels can suffer the "glass ninja syndrome" and I'm fine with that.

Dimirag wrote:

Longman wrote:[I guess this really matters most at 1st level. By the time you have 5000 exp you would have 4d4 (average 10)*. The wizard would still have 2d4 (average 5) and the cleric 3d6 (11), while the fighter is on 3d8 (13). So the thief does quite well if they take enough care.
* That's not using max hp at 1st level.

The low XP requirement helps a thief with his Hit Points at lower levels.

Really? I hadn't thought of that.

Dimirag wrote:I give assassins and other thievish classes d6 for HD provided they are more combative.

My reasoning on the d4 thieves is the following:

First the game used d6 for most things, then warriors got bumped to d8 and MU got lowered to d4, then the cleric came, being half fighter half MU they give it the standard d6 for HD and a mid combat skill,

Oh, no. Not so, sir.

Having just battled my way through the creation of Iron Falcon, I can tell you that Fighter, Magic-User, and Cleric were all core classes from the very beginning. They used d6's for everything, but allocated them in a weird way (not just one every level) in the original three books. The first supplement added the Thief and changed the hit dice to the d8/d6/d4/d4; BX used the same dice, while 1E bumped them up to the d10/d8/d6/d4 the OP asked about.

Seriously, why does everyone want to change everything as soon as they walk in the door? Settle in first, see how you like the furniture the way it's arranged, before you start throwing stuff out and redecorating.

And regarding the oft-mentioned "fact" that Magic-Users and Thieves have the "same" hit dice... dudes, the Thief gets a die AHEAD of the Magic-User and stays there basically forever, due to their respective XP advancement. Don't get hung up on one detail if you haven't done ALL the math.

... and yeah, climbing walls is physical. But it doesn't involve taking a beating (or you're doing it wrong).

Well, that's my thinking of why they where created in that way, not on which order they where released, from what I've read at some point the game had only fighters and magic users, then the whole vampire pc thing led to the cleric creation, then the game was released.

I'm not talking about which class came before but rather as to why they use the HD they use.

The thief having more HD than the magic users where discussed above also.

Seriously, why does everyone want to change everything as soon as they walk in the door? Settle in first, see how you like the furniture the way it's arranged, before you start throwing stuff out and redecorating

I'm pretty sure this discussion is almost 40 years old.

I always thought that thieves should be d6 as well, but that's because I didn't do much thieving until 1e where thieves d6 in the PbH. Longman definitely has me rethinking d4 as fair. By level they're lower, but maybe they're equivalent when looking at raw XP.

here's a hit point comparison based on levels at the same XP

Solomoriah wrote:Having just battled my way through the creation of Iron Falcon, I can tell you that Fighter, Magic-User, and Cleric were all core classes from the very beginning. They used d6's for everything, but allocated them in a weird way (not just one every level) in the original three books. The first supplement added the Thief and changed the hit dice to the d8/d6/d4/d4; BX used the same dice, while 1E bumped them up to the d10/d8/d6/d4 the OP asked about.

I also like thieves having d6 HD, but then I'm not a fan of the separate class XP advancement tables. I do think thieves, being the sneaky, physical sort, should be more likely to avoid damage than a bookish mage (and HP aren't all about toughness).

But with regard to OD&D, one of the advantages of varying numbers of d6 HD is that classes with more HD (i.e. the fighters) automatically get a boost from a higher Con, as they get to add it more often. This seems much more elegant than saying a fighter's high Con is worth more than any other class's same Con score. Also handy for if you need to roll lots of HD, as d6s are generally more common. And it keeps HP low, but starts everyone off with a full HD.

Also you can do some fun things with varying HD. Big tough race? Bigger HD. Small weak race? Smaller HD. Race who grows with level (like dragons)? Increase HD size as you level up, and just reroll those HD. Can't be bothered looking up to-hit values? Attack bonus = HD. No need for health and damage to be so strongly tied.

Solomoriah wrote:Seriously, why does everyone want to change everything as soon as they walk in the door? Settle in first, see how you like the furniture the way it's arranged, before you start throwing stuff out and redecorating.

I generally don't like to tinker too much myself, so I probably wouldn't transplant OD&D's HD into BF, but it's nice to think about different mechanics, and how they affect the game.

spaceLem wrote:But with regard to OD&D, one of the advantages of varying numbers of d6 HD is that classes with more HD (i.e. the fighters) automatically get a boost from a higher Con, as they get to add it more often. This seems much more elegant than saying a fighter's high Con is worth more than any other class's same Con score.

But in 0E, only Fighters get to use the Con bonus anyway.

Solomoriah wrote:

spaceLem wrote:But with regard to OD&D, one of the advantages of varying numbers of d6 HD is that classes with more HD (i.e. the fighters) automatically get a boost from a higher Con, as they get to add it more often. This seems much more elegant than saying a fighter's high Con is worth more than any other class's same Con score.

But in 0E, only Fighters get to use the Con bonus anyway.

True. I'm probably thinking of AD&D, or Gygax's own D&D house rules. I get mixed up with rules sets sometimes (all very similar, but with subtle differences).

TBH, I haven't even used the OD&D HD, as when I ran OD&D I used the Greyhawk alternate HD types (and I allowed Con mods for everyone, because I forgot about fighters only).