Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

MacLeod wrote:

Sir Bedivere wrote:Why can't pecan pie taste so delicious and be as healthy as broccoli? The more rules there are, the more you have to focus on mechanics.

Sounds like a cop out answer to me, sir.

I'm not in the habit of 'copping out' anywhere, but it's silly to accuse me of that in an RPG forum where it could hardly matter less. What would I be 'copping out' on anyway? This isn't a win-lose situation, and I'm not opposed to your suggestions. I think I've engaged in a fair discussion of them, including pointing out that I needed to reconsider them given that they are much simpler than I had thought before.

MacLeod wrote:

Sir Bedivere wrote:No one but the cleric deals much in religion, so now we should deduct 4 from every other class's Religion Knowledge checks? Much simpler to give the cleric +5 to begin with.

This isn't necessarily true... the only reason I would penalize a generic MU is because they spend so much time studying magic, a scientific power, as opposed to letting themselves fall in faith and believe in that power.

All of the D&D-style magic systems I've seen are anti-scientific. There are no general laws that can be applied and there's no particular system or logic to the spells themselves. Magical research creates more unsystematic, particular spells; it does not work toward universal laws of magic that would further explain the magical world. If you make MUs scientific, that's your campaign choice, not the way the class is set up.

My campaign is essentially an alternate medieval Europe. Since I draw heavily on medieval history, Clerics are the ones most likely to study and practice any kind of science, as they were historically. Also, faith as such is irrelevant in a world where the priests get one or more miracles every day. The existence and power of the gods is proven in verifiable, reliable, rational ways on a daily basis.

MacLeod wrote:

Sir Bedivere wrote:If it's going to be a rule, it needs to be pretty universal and not dependent on what might be the case, or on the GM designing his world around it. ...

eh, maybe.
I like to design rules with setting implications...

Me too, very much. But rules that have setting implications are less likely to be useful in other people's campaigns than universal rules that can be modified to fit into any setting.

On the other hand, it sounds like you have a pretty interesting campaign. Have you thought about putting together a campaign world supplement? You would have a pretty good scope to explore your house rules in their natural setting, for one, and one can never have too many world options, I always say.

Thinking about your feat rules again, I like the apparent simplicity. Have you used them? I'm interested in hearing your experience w/ these rules.

I don't think I will use your feat proposals right away because they add a layer of complexity that I want to avoid right now. It isn't that your rules are complex, but rather that I'm considering a BUNCH of house rules at the moment and I want to keep the number I adopt to the minimum until I see how they work out in play. I'll keep your ideas in mind for the future, though.

I do want to adopt or create a skills system, but I need to spend some time comparing the half-dozen systems I've been mulling over.

Cheers.

Hello there. I'm new here, and first of all wanted to say "thanks" for the tremendous work you folks have done and for offering it for free. You have been one of the factors responsible for getting me interested in RPGing again, and bringing my adult kids with me.

I had a question on magic rules, but let me give you a little background. And let me apologize in advance for my ignorance. I've just begun to explore the forums, and while I couldn't immediately find this topic discussed, there's no guaranteeing that my questions will be original.

I did a lot of playing and ran a campaign in my high-school and college days based on The Fantasy Trip (ancestor of GURPS). I tried a bit of D&D (3rd edition basic) but found it a bit off-putting compared to the simplicity of TFT, and was particularly annoyed with the fire-and-forget magic system, which seemed totally counter-intuitive.

Anyhow, life went on. My adult kids and I recently instituted "game night" where we all get together once a week to reconnect and play games. Started with Monopoly, Risk, etc, but one night when we were bored with that I decided on a whim to whip up a home-made version of TFT rules (which I practically had memorized) and do some basic arena combat. Everyone loved it and wanted more.

I shortly discovered that TFT was out of business. Looked at GURPS but it seemed needlessly complex (and I didn't have a big budget). Then I found some free retro alternatives and we started a campaign with Microlite 20 rules (which intimidated me the least and seemed the closest to TFT) playing your Morgansfort campaign. As we've gotten into it, however, I've found that while Microlite is nice and compact, it leaves too much up in the air. We spent 30 minutes, for example, searching around for movement rules during combat. Still haven't found them. We had to break out the Basic Fantasy rules to settle the question.

So in the end, we've decided your rules are a better fit for people like myself who have done RPG, but are new to the retro D&D rules. We're going to spend the next evening converting all the characters to Basic Fantasy. However... I still can't abide the fire-and-forget magic system. One of the things I liked about Microlite was a points-based magic system more like TFT. I'll just hack in a house rule if need be, but I wondered if there were a more "official" option for points-based magic somewhere in one of the supplements that I'd missed.

No problem if there's not. Your system is still the best balance I've found. After spending a lot of time looking over all the rules sets available out there (and there are some great ones) I keep coming back to yours. It's coherent, complete and has all the options I want (except that magic thing...).

Anyhow, keep up the good work, and I'd appreciate any feedback.

KeithCampbell wrote:I still can't abide the fire-and-forget magic system. One of the things I liked about Microlite was a points-based magic system more like TFT. I'll just hack in a house rule if need be, but I wondered if there were a more "official" option for points-based magic somewhere in one of the supplements that I'd missed.

Welcome,

I don't know if you have seen it, but the Sorcerer supplement has a spell point system. It would be simple to swap the sorcerer class for the magic-user class, and probably rather easy to use the same system for the cleric.

Agreed, use the Sorcerer (or perhaps check out the semi-sorcerer "fey-mage' thread) instead of MU. For Clerics, shift the progression by one level (as BFRPG clerics do not have spells at first level).

I had forgotten about the fey-mage, I actually like that system better than the point system of the sorcerer.

Bringing it over to the Cleric as well, you might want to keep the memorization for what spells they can use in a given day, but use the spell points for actual casting.

This is mainly because clerics have all their spells available to be 'memorized' in a day - it might be unbalancing compared to the Sorcerer/Fey-Mage's more limited spell selection.

Thanks for the suggestions. I had missed the Sorcerer supplement and the fey-mage thread. I'll work with one of those. Although it still leaves the magic users and clerics weak as kittens compared to TFT, but that's part of the flavor of the game, apparently.

Adding the 0-level spells is a nice boost. (In my game I give bonus spells for high Intelligence/Wisdom scores).

KeithCampbell wrote:... it still leaves the magic users and clerics weak as kittens compared to TFT ...

What does TFT do different? Is the Magic-User able to use a lot more spells at low level with the point system? Or are there other things as well?

I've been working on a set of optional rules for the MU, and I just posted the first release candidate on another thread here, if you're interested. They are mainly aimed at beefing up the low-level MU.

Also, for beginning players, you might look at the Beginner's Essentials supplement on the downloads page. It's a very stripped down version of the rules just for 1st level characters.