How Do Thieves Skills Work?

[Togo Galthus]

/.../ So as I poked around online to try and answer this question earlier, I found that a lot of people have reacted to similar setups the same way that I am. Namely, I think it's pretty strange that a thief is only 10% likely to succeed at some of her skills! Doesn't that seem pretty low? A wizard isn't 10% likely to be able to cast a spell, right?

Remember that when the first level characters first set out on the first adventure, they are simply novices. The are taking their first steps to becom full blown thiefs and priests, for instance. Many things are very difficult for them to do, or they cannot do it at all yet. But as they gain experience they get better and better, and this progress is one of the biggest motivators for many -- it's part of the fun!

Of course you knew that, but it deserves repeating, I think.

But I would also like to point out that there are many ways of overcoming obstacles. The characters may think that the thief *have to* succeed with this or that skill to achieve the goal, but in most if not every situation there are several ways to overcome. If the thief fails with his skill, one simply has to find another way. To many the lower levels are the most fun, when seemingly simple, mundane challanges turn out to be difficult and they players need to be very creative.

[Woe]

The way I rule it would be: If the moving thief does it successfully the other thief has no chance of hearing it regardless of the listening roll (the thief does not know the result of the roll)..

I don't understand what that is fair to thief #2. Let's make it more extreme: thief #1 has only 10% and thief #2 has a 99%. The second thief can identify hawks on windcurrents. Why does the first thief get to negate all the skill the second thief has?

That's why I've always tried to play them as contested actions.

[Dimirag]

I know what you mean, I plan on using a d20 + skill bonus for thieves to allow for skill confrontations.

The way I use the % skills is just that, some skills cancel others. Not fair, I know, but fast and simple.

You could say that the second thief could hear or identify (with a 1% chance of error) hawks and windcurrents, but most importantly, he can't hear something that is not making any noise like a hawk sleeping or still wind.

9 out of 10 times the thief will listen some sound, but 1 out of 10 the other will make NO sound, meaning that there is NOTHING to heard.

[Solomoriah]

Listen allows a thief to hear things which may be heard by others, but under circumstances when they themselves cannot hear it.

So a thief Listening might hear another thief who successfully rolled to Move Silently ONLY in a situation where an ordinary character would hear the sneak if he failed.

Wow, that's complicated. Let's try an example.

Sneaky thief Nimble Ned is following the adventurers, just out of range of their light source. If he fails to Move Silently, the adventurers will hear him. If he succeeds, they won't. Now Barthal, also a thief, is with the adventure party... if his player says "Barthal is trying to listen" and he succeeds, he will hear Ned even if Ned made his Move Silently roll.

Now let's say Ned is in the next room, sneaking up to the door. Ordinary characters aren't all that good at listening at doors; an ordinary character won't hear him whether he succeeds or fails (unless Ned rolls really bad, in which case I might throw the listening adventurer a bone). If he fails, and Barthal succeeds at Listening at the door, Barthal will hear him... but Barthal succeeding won't do any good if Ned makes his roll too.

Moving Silently makes it hard to hear you. Being behind a door makes it hard to hear you. Listening makes it easier to hear. The Listener needs some other advantage to push him over the top if both cases apply.

I always try to take into account the player's stated methods. A stalker hanging further back than Ned, for instance, would get a bonus to Move Silently.

ALL THAT SAID, a good method for a contest between thief abilities would be interesting as an option.

[Dimirag]

We rule it the opposite ways

Listening requires the character to focus on something that might happen while moving requires concentrating on something that will happen so I see it working the way you rule it.

I rule Move Silently as creating virtually no noise instead of making harder to be heard.

The most common contest method in percentile games is to determine the winner by whom succeed by the most i.e. the one that rolls the higher without failing his roll is the winner.

[Longman]

The most important thing for me is to distinguish between what everyone can do and what only the thief can do. Otherwise, other characters end up getting Dex or Int rolls to climb or hide or move silently, because it seems like everyone should have a chance to try something like that - and if the thief is made to use their thief skills for attempting the same thing, they are badly penalised and their initial scores look very low indeed.

Here's my rough guide:

OPEN LOCKS
Everyone - pick simple door locks in taverns, etc, if DM allows.
Thief only - pick complex locks on safes, chests, major dungeon doors

PICK POCKETS
Everyone - pilfer an item from a table, or possibly a large bag
Thief only - actually get hold of attended items, or things from people's clothing, without them noticing

MOVE SILENTLY
Everyone - move in wilderness or dungeon without making too much noise, get to within about 120' of enemies before triggering a hear noise roll, depending on the type of enemy.
Thief only - sneak right up within backstabbing distance of a human opponent, or sneak within 30' of attentive humanoids or animals with good hearing.

CLIMB WALLS
Everyone - climb up a surface with decent handholds or a knotted rope
Thief Only - climb a surface with no visible handholds at all

HIDE
Everyone - hide behind cover, stay out of sight, usually while not moving.
Thief only - hide in a shadowy corner in a room containing people, sneak along a shadowy wall near enemies, or hide another situation where anyone else would automatically be seen.

LISTEN
Everyone - Make standard hear noise rolls by race, to determine if a fairly quiet noise is heard.
Thief only - hear a silent thief approaching, or another uncannily quiet noise that no one else could possibly hear.

Each GM will have different ideas about what 'Everyone' can do and how to roll for it - Dex rolls, Int rolls, or no roll at all if it's easy enough.

But when you use thief skills, make it for things that you wouldn't let anyone else get away with, no matter how well they roll on a d20.

[Dimirag]

Here's an alternate way of dealing with roll vs roll: Make an Initiative Roll! Then the character that won makes his roll first.

So, if the listening thief won initiative he will roll first, if he succeed he will hear his opponent (no extra roll needed) but if he fails the other thief has a chance to move silently. If the sneaking thief got the initiative then the rolling order is inverted, with the listening thief rolling only if the sneaking one misses his roll.

With this way no thief has the upper hand when using a skill against other thief (or other character).

[Longman]

Just curious, Dimirag - what do you do in a situation where someone is trying to sneak up on the party, and they are not alert to the danger? When do you give them a chance to detect?

And, at what point do you allow an enemy a chance to hear a PC who is attempting to sneak up on them?

To me these question come up in almost every session. I can use opposed rolls, initiative rolls, whatever system I like - but the real question is, when do I apply it? Do you have a system for that, or do you 'play it by ear' every time?

Anyway I hope some of this is helpful to the original poster. I also remember thinking that thief skills looked incredibly low, to the point where you would never bother using some of them until you were about 5th level. But I've kept playing with them and somehow the thief still seems like the thief, I guess it just seems to work out somehow.

[Dimirag]

Normally I use Listen checks as an active thing with two exceptions:

1-If the sound is loud enough but could be concealed by other sound or the party is somehow distracted then I make the rolls.
2-Thieves always have the chance to listen.

When a PC or NPC moves silently I roll to see if he makes noise, if he succeed then no Listen roll is needed (I still roll for them, to not give clues to the players) because a rule that a successful Move Silently roll creates virtually no sound.

Just curious, Dimirag - what do you do in a situation where someone is trying to sneak up on the party, and they are not alert to the danger? When do you give them a chance to detect?

If they sneak silently (successful rolls) then I don't roll for Listen.
If they sneak while doing sounds (unsuccessful rolls) I only roll for the thieves.

And, at what point do you allow an enemy a chance to hear a PC who is attempting to sneak up on them?

It largely depends on the enemy, if they are "thief like" or not. If the PC moves silently then no roll for the enemy, otherwise I give them a chance if they are alert of their surroundings unless there is some noise covering for the sneaking PC.

To me these question come up in almost every session. I can use opposed rolls, initiative rolls, whatever system I like - but the real question is, when do I apply it? Do you have a system for that, or do you 'play it by ear' every time

Its basically a matter of considering if the listener has a chance of listening to the sound. I consider 3 things:
1-Is there a sound to be heard? Silent moving characters make no noise, a chain wielding ogre makes a lot of noise.
2-Does the sound reach the listener? Thick walls, other sounds and other things can impede the sound form reaching some ears.
3-Is the listener in a condition to listen the sound? Distracted characters tend to ignore more subtle sounds.

If these conditions are met then a Listen Roll is allowed. Remember that Thieves are better at Listening and get a roll even if distracted.

[Longman]

Thanks, that's helpful. Especially this: If they sneak while doing sounds (unsuccessful rolls) I only roll for the thieves.

In a large party the chance of someone rolling a 1 on a 'normal' Listen roll is virtually 100% so an unsuccessful sneak roll would mean you had definitely been heard, even if you only missed by a small margin. Only giving thieves or creatures with great hearing a chance to hear an unsuccessful sneaking thief is a good idea.

Does the sound reach the listener?

Tough to make rules for, given so many variables. In a lot of situations I make the relevant rolls at 120', then maybe 60', then 30'. If someone can sneak within 30', then usually they can rush attack an unsuspecting enemy, or fire at very close range. I might drop the 120' roll if factors were in favor of the person trying to sneak up. For a thief moving alone, I'd only start rolling at 60'.

Realistically, creatures with animal-like hearing or smell could detect an approaching enemy from ages away - but I usually make it 120', anyway.

It largely depends on the enemy, if they are "thief like" or not.

Yeah, that's the other big variable. I have a very rough 5 stage progression in my head, going from 1 - supernaturally sneaky like a ghost (do not even roll until about 10') up to 5 - extremely noisy (start rolling at as far away as 240').

But I have never really fleshed it out much.