Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

"Declare, then roll" either expects (if not outright requires) contingency orders, or needs a system for allowing someone to change their actions. Personally, I like the idea of trying to shoot a fleeing orc, and not knowing if he manages to dive for cover (gets initiative and makes his move) before you get your shot off. But at the same time, you should be able to switch gears if your specific action is rendered moot, but a viable alternative is at hand (i.e. you specified bandit #1, only he's dead when your turn arrives - can you shift to #2?). Find that balance between enforcing declared actions, and keeping it flowing, lest everyone declare "Wait and see."

I suspect that any given choice behind initiative will depend on your personal mix of simulation-of-experience, referee-of-rules, and narrative or collaborative storytelling, plus the whole GM-player relationship.

Since we're getting less into errata, and more into philosophy, interpretation, and house ruling, does this need to be spun off into another topic, or moved over to the last time we got into the initiative debate?

OK ... back on topic ... Core Rules Errata (possibly):

Unless I've missed the relevant section (which is entirely possible), I can't find any coverage of "listening at doors" in the Core Rulebook (apart from the specialist thief skill). Given that B/X does cover this aspect (1 on a d6 for humans, 1-2 for dwarves/elves/halflings), is this an oversight, or a deliberate design decision?

Just did a quick search, and couldn't find any reference to listening/hearing outside of the thief ability. Secret doors are covered (with intelligence boost), as is "unskilled" trap detection.

So you didn't miss it, it's just not there.

Looks like it was missed. Should be a rule for it, I suppose; I'll make a note to look at it when I dig in to the rules again.

Solomoriah wrote:Looks like it was missed. Should be a rule for it, I suppose; I'll make a note to look at it when I dig in to the rules again.

Any thoughts on how you might implement it? As per Moldvay (as described in my previous post)? Or in some other way. OSRIC, for example, has a much lower chance: 10%, or 15% for elves and halflings (not dwarves).

Since thieves have it as a special ability, I'd make sure that the odd random character would be no better at it than a 1st level thief, and probably a bit less. Other than that, no, right now I have no specific rule in mind.

I'd just make it the same chance as Secret Doors (1 in 6 for most (about 17%), some races might get bonus) for simplicity. It may not be exact, but is worse than a 1st level thief and is a consistent mechanism for resolution of those sorts of acts. Likewise, it might be applied to things such as untrained picking of pockets, moving silently, trap removal, or hiding.... it gives all characters a slim chance to do some of these sorts of non-magical tasks while keeping a Thief better at all levels (exception Hiding skill might need some thought, base thief ability is very low here).

They did love the D6, didn't they?

1 in 6 would fit nicely with everything else. Hearing 2 in 6 for elves fits the keen senses, and I can see it for halflings as well. For move silently, I could see a 1 in 6 - if you aren't wearing chain or plate mail. Not that you can't move quietly - I think it's a general assumption that if you're moving cautiously through a dungeon, one of the things you are doing is trying not to make a ton of noise.

Another option for some "unskilled" attempts would be to borrow from our hairy-toed friends and use an 'out of 10' range (akin to their 9/10 & 7/10 hiding talents). 1 in 10 works nicely for hiding in shadows (equal to lvl 1 thief), and can be used to set for longer odds for other tricks. Plus it allows for +1 for racial bonuses (and opens the door for stat-based bonuses - but that may better fit as an addendum to one of the supplements). If you went this route, I'm still inclined to leaving the senses (secret doors, traps, and listening) on the D6, and use the D10 for actions (filching, sneaking, etc.). This may be something to tuck under optional rules, though.

There should be a few things that are flat-out impossible without the thief's special training. Picking Locks, lifting (pickpocketing) anything that isn't readily visible and accessible, free climbing a castle wall... this takes training and practice.

SmootRK wrote:I'd just make it the same chance as Secret Doors (1 in 6 for most (about 17%), some races might get bonus) for simplicity.

Regarding specifically the listening, I think I might go with a 1 in 10 for a human or dwarf, and 2 in 10 for an elf or halfling, In this way there's a degree of racial distinction, but both are below a 1st level thief (30%).

Personally, I'm not fussed about the other stuff - open locks, remove traps, hide, move silently, etc. I'm happy to leave those exclusively to the domain of the thief.

Another way to deal with (specifically) thief abilities done by non-thieves, is to load the Thief Ability Table with a row (or 2) before 1st level. Call it/them either "Non-Thief" or "Zero" Level and set the numeric values accordingly.

I would be inclined to utilize 2 'pre-levels'; one for rogue-like characters of non-leveled types (such as something like a Scout Man-at-Arm, or zero-level human beggar), and one for completely non-roguish characters. The exact figures are debatable.