Sleep spell no limit on HD affected?

[existence123]

Hello-

I was reading through the spells in the core rules and noticed that the sleep spell affects any number of three hit dice or less creatures within a 30' radius. I believe in third edition, the spell limits the total number of HD affected to four. As written in the BFRPG book, you could potentially put many, many HD to sleep (theoretically however many could fit into a 60' diameter circle.) Seems a bit powerful for a first level spell, no? I believe I'll house rule it to limit HD. Anyone else do this?

[Hywaywolf]

yes, you can put to sleep as many 3hd and under as can be crammed into a 30' radius. The difference between this and older versions of the spell is that it has no affect on 4th level characters/monsters (B/X rules allowed for 1 4hd character/monster to be affected)and all characters get a save. I hated the old spell because it was automatic and I couldn't get a chance to save against it.

[Woe]

I've had a house rule in the past where it affects 4x the caster's level in HD, but anyone above 3HD was unaffected.

So a high level caster could wipe out an army of squirrels, but as Hyway said, only so many beings can fit in a 30' radius.

[Hywaywolf]

and they get a chance to save. That is a major point. If you don't get them all you can't give coup de gras unless you want to get attacked while doing it. Not to mention that if a DM is playing fair then he would have his monsters that saved start slapping awake the sleeping ones to get them back into the battle.

Web has as good or better success than sleep since it can affect a larger area, no HD restrictions and even if they save they still can't attack. So sleep is powerful for a first level PC but not over the top powerful and they can't use it that many times a day anyway.

[seandon4]

In my view, BFRPG sleep is somewhat in between third ed and B/X (in B/X it's 2-16 HD instead of radius). BFRPG says above 3 HD are not affected (4+1 in B/X) , but I did at some point actually look up the monsters and compared BF with B/X and from what I remember, sleep in BF actually affects mostly the same monsters as it did in B/X; the only difference is that the numbers are consistently offset in BFRPG -- it also doesn't work on undead and yes BFRPG allows the save, which is good for when it's cast on party members.

EDIT: BFRPG uses ad&d style Web spell which is much more volume than B/X, but there was a whole discussion about ad&d web on DF recently. IMHO ad&d web is not that bad because an MU has to hold on to it for the right time and if you set fire to it, then all the creatures are freed from the web -- though a bit scorched in the process. Traditionally arrows and projectiles will get stuck in webs as well though this is not codified in BFRPG.

[Woe]

When playing a magic-user, I've always found web+cloudkill worked better than web+fireball.

[Solomoriah]

For the record... Sleep is one of the spells I spent a lot of time trying to "get right," and I'm pretty happy with the result. If it's "unbalanced" I haven't noticed it.

[Hywaywolf]

I want to reemphasize how the Save addition to the BFRPG sleep spell balances not having the limit to the number affected. limit. If a non BFRPG wizard encounters a single guard up to 4+1 HD and absolutely must need to get by it silently and quickly then Sleep is automatic. A BFRPG wizard can't be positive it will work and for sure won't work on a 4+1 hd guard.

If a non BF wizard encounters 4 or 5 1st level creatures he can be reasonably sure that he will put them all to sleep. If he gets a bad HD roll he might have to still kill 1 or 2 of them, but he'd most likely put them all to sleep. And since other rules don't give an area of effect that wizard can probably use it on an entire group in a room even if one is more than 30' from the point of aim and near an exit door. A BF wizard might put all or none of the creatures asleep depending on their Save success and the one by the door won't even be affected, he can dash away and set the alarm. If enough of them save they can still put up a good fight while 1 or 2 of them slap the sleepers awake.

[existence123]

I checked the d20 srd, and apparently third edition sleep spells do allow a saving throw to negate the effect. So that, at least, it has it common with the BF version of sleep. It also has a ten foot radius AoE while BF's has a thirty foot radius. So in review:

BF Sleep: no HD limit, Save negates, affects only 3 or less HD creatures, 30' AoE

D20 sleep: 4 HD limit, save negates, affects 4 HD or less, 10' AoE

I don't have the information to compare durations and ranges, however.

It seems to me BF's sleep spell is more powerful, both in area of effect (creatures have to be sort of tightly clustered with a 10' radius) and in the lack of HD limit.

Let me say that I'm NOT suggesting the BF spell is overpowered, or anything like that. I suspect it might be, but I've only played a single session of BF, so I'm certainly unqualified to make any such assessment. I was just struck by the rather significant differences in the spell and wanted to collect others' thoughts on the matter.

Thanks!

[Hywaywolf]

I don't compare BFRPG to modern games; I compare it to Basic/Expert rules from 1981. So that might be why I may view it difeerently than you. As to the comparison I see it as the d20 sleep spell is underpowered, especially if it only affects 4hd. Also, I am not sure about the aoe you are using. does AOE mean radius or diameter? I ask because in one place you have it correct that its 30' radius and in another you are saying people have to cluster in a 10' radius.

I also believe that the key difference is in how powerful a MU is in the two different games. If you took the sleep spell away from a 1st or 2nd level d20 MU he would still be a pretty powerful force to reckon with, but if you took it away from the B/X or BFRPG MU then you have basically castrated him and he's not good for much more than carrying a torch. That is one of the reasons the sleep spell is so powerful in b/x and BFRPG.