Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

Solomoriah wrote: With a Roll20 sheet, why would you need to ask a player what his or her bonus is? Wouldn't you just look for yourself? Or am I missing something here?

As GM, or as Player?

My BFRPG on Roll20 is an open table introducing new players. I'm likely to have 5 players one week, and 10 different players the next week, some of them being new to BFRPG, others being new to tabletop gaming entirely. I would like filling-in the character sheet to take under 5 minutes per Player. Name, Race, Class, Ability Scores, done. GM or program fills the rest.

I neither want to look at 15 different character sheets each combat, nor teach them the in's & out's of calculating hits. While I have provided them a free link to read BFRPG, many of my players may be starting without familiarity with the rules. I just want the most simple basic game for introducing new players online, where new players can come in & start playing without teaching much. I want to de-complicate in every way possible for new players. Hence a macro button to attack which automatically reads the AB and Str Mod and if there's a Magic weapon bonus. The main things my players will need to type on their sheet is Race, Class, Name, and 6 Ability Scores. The rest will be programatically filled in, or manually filled by me (the GM) for them. For example all equipment is standard to simplify the startup for new players. Saving throws & AB are based on level so I don't want New Players to calculate or look up those.

I can make my own macros for them. Not expecting Chris to incorporate macros in the sheet (though it might be a nice upgrade if he does).

Not fond of the "AB" field on Weapons, since AB means Attack Bonus already in the game, and you're making it have a different meaning here (a calculated attack bonus that would include other modifiers that the Player is expected to tally using math and knowledge of the rules). Wouldn't want new players to be making calculations for their sheet, nor filling the same repeating field multiple times as that's busywork. So I think that's my main comment at this point, I don't care for repeated fields on the sheet such as multiple fields saying "AB" unless it auto-magically calculates what goes in that field. Imitating a paper sheet is a good starting point, but this is a computer. I want the computer to look at their Strength and Level, and determine what their Attack Bonuses are, and put those numbers on their attack roll so that nobody has to ask or look for that basic bit of info that's used multiple times in every combat.

Otherwise, I would be asking players verbally each combat, because I play it where the GM leads New Players into the game and confirms what they're rolling to attack, not where the GM expects players to understand d20 + AB + Str Mod by pre-reading the game rules and then trusts that any roll the player does is accurately tallied. It's not that I don't trust my Players, it's that my Players are to include a continual crop of total newbies.

Thank you for the progress.

What is the chance this sheet will be live for use by Non-Mentors by this Thursday or Friday?

Gold wrote:

Solomoriah wrote: With a Roll20 sheet, why would you need to ask a player what his or her bonus is? Wouldn't you just look for yourself? Or am I missing something here?

As GM, or as Player?

My BFRPG on Roll20 is an open table introducing new players. I'm likely to have 5 players one week, and 10 different players the next week, some of them being new to BFRPG, others being new to tabletop gaming entirely. I would like filling-in the character sheet to take under 5 minutes per Player. Name, Race, Class, Ability Scores, done. GM or program fills the rest.

I neither want to look at 15 different character sheets each combat, nor teach them the in's & out's of calculating hits.

[[ hacked off the rest for brevity, as I get the point. ]]

I never run an online game with more than 5 players, so it never occurred to me that it would be a problem. I can see your point... however, how do you handle that guy with a Longsword +1, +3 vs. Regenerators?

Gold wrote:Not fond of the "AB" field on Weapons, since AB means Attack Bonus already in the game, and you're making it have a different meaning here (a calculated attack bonus that would include other modifiers that the Player is expected to tally using math and knowledge of the rules).

AB is what it is... the attack bonus. That the number is situational and conditional doesn't change the fact that it's always the AB. But I understand your concern... what would you prefer me to call that column?

Gold wrote:What is the chance this sheet will be live for use by Non-Mentors by this Thursday or Friday?

I have to push the new sheet to my Github account, then submit a pull request to the Roll20 staff. I have NO idea how long it will take them to respond to a pull request, nor if they will reject my sheet for some reason (I hope not, but it's their house, not mine).

"How would I handle Longsword +1, +3 vs Regenerators?"

Good question. Fair questions. By the way I don't expect The BFRPG Sheet to be tailored for my groups' personal needs, so don't take my requests as overly demanding. We all just want it to be broadly compatible so that it can be used by any sort of BFRPG players.

First let me say that in my New-Player campaign (offering to introduce people to RPG's on Roll20, which I've chosen to use BFRPG for this purpose)... We probably won't have any "complicated" weapons like that. We'll be 1st-4th level PC's, and any magic weapons I give out would probably be like Sword +1. That's a personal answer, so let me move on and say ways to handle the sword bonuses you asked about.

I can think of 2 good ways to handle that sword +1 / +3, in Roll20.

First way is the Player enters 2 weapons (and each weapon has an Attack Macro attached to it, whether the macro is on the character sheet, or the other place in Roll20 where you can put a line of macro buttons that's not on the character sheet).

Weapon 1:
Longsword +1... When you press the macro it adds your AB (by Class/Level), plus your STR Modifier, plus any magic bonus (in this case +1).

Weapon 2: (actually the same weapon but another line in your weapons list, to have it's own macro)
Longsword +3 Vs Regenerators... and you only press this macro if you are fighting against a regenerator. Now the same macro will give you the AB + STR + Regenerator magic bonus +3.

Ok?

Here is the other way to do it.

The macro language on Roll20 allows a Pop-Up for Modifiers to a roll.

The code is [[1d20 + ?]]
or [[1d20 + ?{Modifier|0}]]

This rolls 1d20 then gives a Pop Up asking for the player to enter a number, that number is the modifier applied to the roll.

For example you could have a macro that's 1d20 + AB + STR MOD + ??? Pop Up asking you for any additional modifiers. Here the Player could enter their magic weapon bonuses, or if they had a bonus from a buff spell.

Solomoriah wrote: AB is what it is... the attack bonus. That the number is situational and conditional doesn't change the fact that it's always the AB. But I understand your concern... what would you prefer me to call that column?

You're the man for BFRPG. Is that really how you call it in your games? You call AB as being the sum tally of all relevant attack bonuses?

Yet AB is also the term given in the Core Rules for the number that is your bonus strictly by Class & Level, ignoring whatever STR mod, DEX mod, or magic buffs you may have.

To me that's confusing if there are 2 meanings for AB. For me AB is understood to be the bonus you get for your Class & Level alone, and other modifiers are added to the AB (not part of the AB). That's just my view & my understanding of what's written in the Core Rules. I certainly respect if the creator of the game uses the term AB differently.

The situational/circumstantial/tallied-up Attack Bonus, I would rename something other than AB.

I would probably call that "Total Attack Modifiers" (TAM) or "Total Attack Bonuses" (TAB) or "Tallied Attack Bonuses" (TAB). Or "Combined Attack Modifiers" (CAM) or "Combined Attack Bonuses" (CAB).

But honestly, as a GM, I would not like that, if it was all tallied, anyway.

I don't want Players to roll 1d20+4 where the +4 is a TAB. That hides and obscures where the bonuses come from, and makes it easy to mess up for new players, or to cheat if there's someone who might cheat.

I want them to roll 1d20+1+1+2, and say "I rolled a d20, added my AB of +1, added my STR mod of +1, and added my magic sword +2".

They don't have to say it verbally every time, but the Macro that appears in the chat should reveal it every time, again as I've said, by the dice in the chat stating d20+1+1+2, not d20+4.

Mathamatically the same result & roll20 will show the same total roll either way, but GUI-wise, I think my un-tallied way showing individual bonuses (AB, STR or DEX, and Magic) is better for learning the game & for the GM's ability to oversee the players' rolls for correctness.

GM Gold

Sorry for multiple posts in a row. I could have combined these posts with Editing but it seems more organized to reply separately. Please scroll back up & read the 2 posts before this one first.

I remembered Sneak Attack (+4, thief only), Rear Attack (+2), etc.

Again these either need to be added manually after the roll.... Such as the player rolls the d20 + AB + STR + Magic, and gets a 14, and the GM says "Since you are attacking from the rear we will add +2 and that becomes a 16!"

Or the other option is a Macro with the "+ ?{Modifier|0}" and the Player needs to ask the GM, "Since I'm attacking from the rear, can I go ahead and put +2 on my modifier pop-up?"

List of modifiers that can apply on your attack roll:
+ 1d20
+ AB (by Class/Level)
+ STR mod for Melee only
+ DEX mod for Missile only
+ Magic from weapon
+ Magic from spells that buff
+ Position such as rear attack, sneak attack (may also apply for higher ground or other situational modifiers the GM might apply).

I can write my own macros & make them available to Players, so this is not a complaint about the Character sheet, more of a dialog to figure out how a Roll20 sheet can be a little different from a paper sheet, and to find out how Chris does AB's at his own campaign.

So long as AB by Class & Level is a field on the sheet -- which it is -- that means I can write a Macro that takes d20 + STR + AB, and another Missile macro that takes d20 + DEX + AB.

In my face-to-face games, I say "Roll to hit" and they call out numbers. Seriously. I trust my players... if I didn't, I wouldn't invite them.

And I don't like the alphabet soup that comes from all those acronyms. Heck, I don't "say" AB, I say "Attack Bonus."

Sometimes I do ask a player how they came up with a number, but it's less a matter of trust and more a matter of verifying that they added right. In other words, I don't expect them to cheat but I do wonder sometimes if they can add.

You didn't answer my question, by the way. What do you think that column should be called?

Chris, I did answer that, if you read the posts you'll see. I regret complicating the dialog. I don't care what you put on the sheet.

All I need is the sheet --- any sheet that works --- to go live ASAP, so that I can actually run my campaign for the new players who have been waiting.

It's discouraging where you've implied that I am choosing untrustworthy players, when I am going on a Free Website (Roll20) and offering an Open Table to Complete Strangers in an effort to teach more people around the world about BFRPG.

I have no basis for trust or mistrust, and that's really a poor suggestion that the GM doesn't need to supervise the rolls of new players on the basis of trust. It's not about trust, it's the fact the new players don't know every rule that might apply. They want to learn it, and I want to see that they are adding the right modifiers. Why is that something you think I should not oversee and just be more trusting? How is this subject going to help get the character sheet out?

I'm not doing alphabet soup. You named it AB in the book text, and you now seem to be proposing to give new definitions to this acronym, conflicting with the definition that's written in the Core Rules book. Please review in the book on Pages 46-47. You'll recall AB does not include STR Mod. Those are 2 separate numbers that are added onto Hit rolls.

A word should not be defined using the word itself in the definition. So to me it makes no sense to say Attack Bonus is your Attack Bonus plus your Strength Modifier.

So the tally of AB + STR + Magic is not going to be called Attack Bonus in my game because that term already has an established meaning in the Core Rules.

I suggest calling it Total AB, Tallied AB, Total Hit Bonuses, Hit Bonuses, Bonuses To Hit, Total Bonuses To Hit, Combined Bonuses, or whatever other name you want so long as it's not a name that already is defined.

Please, parse it out, or if you don't want to that's fine, I will in my games anyway. There is no need for 1 total number in my games, or in a format like Roll20's dice roller. GM's and Players want to see the series of modifiers to see where each modifier comes from.

+1 from AB, +1 from STR, +1 from magic, +2 for rear attack.

Not just "Oh I have a +5, Trussssssssst Meeeeeeee"

Gold wrote:Chris, I did answer that, if you read the posts you'll see. I regret complicating the dialog. I don't care what you put on the sheet.

All I need is the sheet --- any sheet that works --- to go live ASAP, so that I can actually run my campaign for the new players who have been waiting.

And what I need from you, in order to give you that, are shorter answers. I'm sorry, Gold, but you spend way too much time justifying rather than just answering my questions. All I needed from you was one simple answer: Does the sheet I posted here meet your minimum requirements?

I know how Open Source projects work; I've been on Github for a while now. They aren't going to want a hot-and-heavy stream of pull requests. So I'd like to restrict the number I actually make to the bare minimum. Since I won't be using this sheet myself, I need a local expert (that would be you) to rule on whether or not the sheet is ready for prime time.

Gold wrote:It's discouraging where you've implied that I am choosing untrustworthy players,

That wasn't intended to indicate your players are untrustworthy. Rather, I was pointing out that my situation is so different from yours that I need you to tell me, briefly, what you need in your situation. I never have to teach new players; even in the convention game I ran recently, I had three very experienced BFRPG players, two more who are somewhat familiar it, one player who GM's Labyrinth Lord, and one player who had broad experience with modern games. There was no need to teach them at all... the experienced players gave the less experienced all the hints they needed to get along just fine.

So I need you to tell me what you need, and I need it in a digestible format. I didn't realize you had answered my question because your answer was so long that I missed part of it.

Gold wrote:I'm not doing alphabet soup. You named it AB in the book text, and you now seem to be proposing to give new definitions to this acronym, conflicting with the definition that's written in the Core Rules book. Please review in the book on Pages 46-47. You'll recall AB does not include STR Mod. Those are 2 separate numbers that are added onto Hit rolls.

Throwing my rulebook at me is bad form. It's time to back down, my friend. Remember, you asked me to do this. I probably won't be using this form myself, and as this is not a for-profit operation, I don't expect any significant payback in any other form for creating it. Kudos are nice, of course, but there are many things I could do for kudos that are easier than this.

The SRD calls it "BAB" for Base Attack Bonus, then adds the other stuff in and calls it "AB" for "Attack Bonus." BAB is the name of a woman who dances in a burlesque show, not something I want to hear bandied about at my table. It is absolutely reasonable, if not necessarily clear, to use the term for both purposes; after all, we use the word "Level" to mean several different things with limited ambiguity.

I'm attaching another sheet layout with the term "Total AB" at the top of the column. For the moment, I'm not going to kill myself trying to get all the bonuses to add up automatically... not being able to use Javascript is already giving me headaches. I'm also going to assume you have answered my question with a "yes," as in, the current form is adequate for your purposes, and I will submit a pull request to the Roll20 team to get it added.

I was just notified this morning that the Basic Fantasy character sheet was accepted by Roll20.

Great news!