unable to open a door...

[SpyderTattoo]

Well, while camping, my two boys and I ran our first BFRPG game. We kept it simple, just the two of their characters, one is a human barbarian and the other is an Elf thief. Two questions came up. While in the wilderness trying to get to a known dungeon enterance, the PC's were attacked by 4 orks. I didn't remember reading anything about "perception" when trying to notice enemies that might be hiding in the forrest. The second problem that came up is that when the PC's found the dungeon, there was a locked door in one of the hallways. The thief failed his pick locks roll, and the barbarian failed his roll to break down the door. So what do they do now? just keep trying again?
I would like to know how people here handle these two problems so my game will go more smoothly next time.

[Hywaywolf]

I am not an experienced DM, but if the thief tried to pick the lock and it failed, and then everyone tried to bash it down and it failed. Then short of finding a key or some heavy duty engineering work the door isn't going to open until they come back with someone else to try bashing open the door or they go up a level and try again.

By teh way, cool for you camping with your kids and gaming as well.

[SmootRK]

Consider it an adventure design flaw (to have the progress of adventure to get halted because of a door that cannot be opened). Take it into your own hands. If that is the only way, then provide a way. Give a clue, or scroll of knock spell, hidden key ring, or perhaps simply knocking on the door (with a being on the other side to open). Don't just rely on the written material exclusively.

good luck

[SpyderTattoo]

I really like the hidden key idea. Duh, couldn't think of that on the fly... Thanks for the ideas. While playing I just kept in mind that this is not a rules-heavy game like Star Wars SAGA that we've played. Just keep it simple to keep the game moving. The way I had them get through the door, by the way, was for the characters to wait 10 minutes in fantasy time then try again, which the barbarian did get the roll this time to break open the door.
Any ideas on the perception thing? Maybe use the skill target roll table to see if the PC can notice the hidden enemy orks.

[Hywaywolf]

In my opinion, if the door isn't critical to continuing the adventure then don't do anything special to make sure they open it, but if its the only way to get into the dungeon or to the lower level or to the treasure trove, etc then there should be a key or some other way to get in. The reality of gaming is that some secret doors won't be found, some loot will be missed, some monsters will get away. If its otherwise then maybe the dungeon is to easy. Another way to open the door for them is to let a monster open it coming from the other side

About sniffing out an ambush, I think wisdom is the best measure there since its a combination of intuition and common sense. ie, spidey sense

[Solomoriah]

Here are my house rules for this sort of situation: Assuming they can't get the door open any other way, or they just decide they WANT to, I let my players bash the door down with a maul or axe (someone always has one or the other). I decide how much "hardness" and how many "hit points" the door has on the fly; each time they hit it, I have the player roll damage just as if attacking in combat, and after deducting the hardness I apply whatever remains to the door's hit points. When the hit points are gone, the door is open.

Oh, and each and every time they bash the door, I roll a wandering monsters check (1 in 6), to appear in 2d10 rounds or so; generally only one group.

Regarding perception: The chance of being surprised IS "perception" in this game. 1-2 on 1d6 for most normal characters, one less for elves (so only on a 1), but with the range expanded for ambushes (1-3), really well planned ambushes (1-4), etc. This is expressed rather briefly in the rules, so not really a house rule.

Smoot's advice regarding poor adventure design also applies. Give 'em an out, if they HAVE to go through the door; if they MUST find a secret door, give 'em a hint.

I've done this: They MUST go through a secret door, but nobody has found it; so I have a nasty monster open it just after they turn to leave. That's hardly making it "easy" for them...

[Latex Spikes]

Hi, new to the forums, first post.
My first thought was have a 'random' wandering monster have a key, and give the key a similar description as the lock. ie: large brass key, large brass lock. Depending on the players you could make it more or less obvious; the very next monster happens to have a single key on him, or sometime down the timeline another monster has a keyring for the various jail cells he's guarding, and one extra, unexplained key on the ring.

[Hywaywolf]

Exactly. If a door is critical to the campaign, then supply a key somewhere or a clue on how to open/find it. If all else fails, then a monster opens it and they have to fight the monster as payment for the munchken assist.

BTW, welcome to BFRPG forums, latex spikes. I just realized this forum doesn't have an Introduce Yourself thread. Why don't you create one to tell us about yourself and how you learned about BFRPG. I'll add my self to the thread in response.

[gmonk]

Hi!

New to the forums, old to the game. (!)

This question is the basis of getting started as a GM. The problem that can't be overcome by the PCs.

There are two cases of this problem: critical to the story and not critical to the story.

If it's critical for the story, then you can provide other means later from another place with clues leading back to the problem. (or sooner, by some 'deus ex machina' like having a character roll against INT or WIS to see if they remember something, or find a loose tile in the floor with the key under it right beneath their feet, have an NPC open it, etc.)

The more you GM the more you will find that the "can't open the door" problem comes up in many different forms. Maybe it will be a missed clue in a murder mystery, maybe it will be something simple and obvious that everyone misses in a normal adventure.

Just remember the lesson of the unopened door: if it's not important, distract them with something down the hall (across the planet|trying to kill them|shiny and inviting). If it *is* important, distract them anyway and lead them back to it with clues later after you give them something believable (within the story) to work with.

The hard part of GMing is that no matter how the adventure is written, no matter how easy or difficult it looks on paper, the players will surprise you. Sometimes they'll miss what (to the GM) seems obvious, other times they'll make that leap and figure out the whole story in one shot. Just run with it and improvise and have fun making up the story.

[Hywaywolf]

Good advice.

My opinion, and I may be in the minority, but something just as important as "The DM should not be out to 'BEAT' the players" is "The DM should not be out to make them win."

If there is very little chance that I won't find the secret door, then why make it secret. If there is very little chance that I won't survive to meet the BBEG, then why make the journey so long and tedious, just pit me against the BBEG. Sometimes, the PC will just fail at something. So be it. If they appear to be damn determined to fail anyway, let them, but make them work for it.