Are Magic-Users Too Weak?

[Thorfinn]

Letting the players roll dice to see if their mage is smart enough to have come up with your solution to the problem seems really close to just having an NPC in the party for whom you don't have to roll dice. Yeah, he doesn't HAVE to act on the suggested action, but if he doesn't have a better idea, why not go with the one that the DM will let work? And if the DM's suggestions don't generally work, why bother with rolling for them in the first place?

I do something similar to the arcane dart thing. The main problem with the one described in the OP is the always hits bit. Twinking mages so it disrupts his spell-casting is the main point of Magic Missile so far as I'm concerned, and it appears this would replace MM. But so long as arcane dart is kind of a wimpy sling that the mage doesn't have to fumble around with, I have not encountered any balance issues. I even use INT bonus as a modifier "to hit".

[bigjawhite]

If the campaign is high fantasy, and if the GM and PCs agree that the MU class is too weak at 1st level, an easy solution is for the MU PC to start play with a scroll or two, or perhaps a wand with several charges remaining - a gift from his mentor. No need to adopt a mana point system or change the starting number of spells or the rate of spell progression with level advancement.

[Jandolar]

MUs that play like a fighter with spell abilities are just plain silly "Oh look, Chuck's going to kick open the door and sling a fireball. Again." and they are easy for a DM to either curtail a bit or outright destroy if the MU is just too stupid about how he/she approaches things.

Now a MU that uses intellect instead of aggression to accomplish goals is one that makes a DM sit up and take notice. MUs by their very nature are supposed to be weak in the combat area at lower levels. One that can think through a problem quickly and lead a party correctly is one that will be a true master of his/her Art at higher levels.

A MU at 1-5 levels that learns to use coercion, tact and intelligence will at higher levels still retain those habits only now they will have the benefit of some serious firepower if things go to crap (think Raislin or Elminster). One that is "buffed up" or given more power will become accustomed to charging in with spells-a-blazing and still have that "blast first and ask questions later" attitude without regard to what might have been accomplished through more subtle means (Shandril from Spellfire is a perfect example). Personally as a DM I love the ones that think before they act, the other kind tends to get other party members killed or at best alienate them.

With all that said I do not play MU. I have a hard time sitting back and trying to figure things out, I also hate not being able to be in the thick of things when the action starts. My preference for game play is a Dwarven Cleric. Whip out the mace and go to work then do some creative healing once the conflict is resolved. Easy peasy.

[Solomoriah]

Yeah, but he had that disappearing pig trick to fall back on.

A good fledgling mage always has a disappearing pig trick to fall back on.

Barring some really unusual rolls or stat assignments, the Magic-User will be the Smart one in the party - use your time to come up with clever ideas and out-of-box solutions to things... possibly even ones that use magic. This is the hardest part to learn. My wife - in her first character, in her first game ever - picked illusionist. I tried to warn her of the difficulty there - that everything you do is clever thinking and deception. She's done well, but continues to struggle with where she fits when we kick in the door and start busting heads. Sometimes you just need a good throwing arm.

Illusionists. I love 'em. One of my all-time favorite characters is Alderon Spendler, human illusionist. I've ruined more than one GM's day with him.

Letting the players roll dice to see if their mage is smart enough to have come up with your solution to the problem seems really close to just having an NPC in the party for whom you don't have to roll dice. Yeah, he doesn't HAVE to act on the suggested action, but if he doesn't have a better idea, why not go with the one that the DM will let work? And if the DM's suggestions don't generally work, why bother with rolling for them in the first place?

Rolling dice? Seriously, I have a magic-user in the party, and they wander into a dungeon room full of magical apparatus. Of course I tell THAT player more than the others. No dice needed... he's just going to know more of what he's looking at.

And you guys who thing magic users need more spells at 1st level... have you READ my blog post yet??? Because until you have, and have indicated the basis of your disagreement with my arithmetic, I honestly don't think you know what you're talking about. No offense intended.

A first level magic user with one spell has about as much chance of surviving and being useful in a dungeon as a first level fighter with a sword. It's math.

[bobtheoldcrank]

And you guys who thing magic users need more spells at 1st level... have you READ my blog post yet??? Because until you have, and have indicated the basis of your disagreement with my arithmetic, I honestly don't think you know what you're talking about. No offense intended.

A first level magic user with one spell has about as much chance of surviving and being useful in a dungeon as a first level fighter with a sword. It's math.

Two huge thumbs up. HUGE.

This statement - and the blog post upon which it is predicated - are the reason I keep saying "You're playing the wrong game".

Cheers,

Bob

[Longman]

I agree with those who have said that the magic-user can be a plot focus for the game.

To me, magic is the most inherently interesting thing in RPGs. Games like Traveller, Gamma World, Champions and so on, never worked out the same for me. I just like magic. It's what makes fantasy what it is.

For this reason magic tends to be at the heart of many of my scenarios as a DM and also used to be a major focus as a player.

Just imagine, the characters are all looking for a legendary spear of the ancient elvish Kings...and it isn't magical?

Yeah, right. Of course it's magical. Or at least, they think it is.

The problem with the 'magic zap' magic-user for me, isn't really one of game balance or flawed maths.

It's just that it sounds like a fighter, or someone with a laser pistol. It's just not magical.

I usually place great limit around magic (hard to find spells, limited choice, etc) and then reward casters with extra spell slots - the rule stating that the primary stat modifier be used for extra 1st level spells seems like a decent rule to me.

But in terms of game play, I think the magic-user is also rewarded if the game is about magic.

Finding arcane documents? Discovering an ancient cult?

That's when the fighter stands round in the background and play is focused on the mage.

Here's an idea - give read magic as a free ability, or even as a language skill, so that the mage can read all the magic plot stuff as it comes to hand. An 11 year old could dig reading that out to his friends.

[BusterBluth]

I have to agree with those that have replied about how the focus of MUs shouldn't be combat, especially at low-levels. If you want to enrich the class mechanically, here's a couple of things I was considering:

- MUs are storehouses of knowledge. Characters can attempt to recall relevant information about a place or a new monster. They have a 20% chance of success at this, modified by plus or minus 2% per INT bonus/penalty, plus another 2% per HD. Even if successful, it’s possible that no new information may exist. For each 5 points the roll beats the difficulty, it’s also possible the character knows another piece of information. This ability can be used to know a little about a monster’s special abilities, the personality quirks of a major opponent, rumors of a newly traveled area, or a bit of the history of a newly discovered dungeon.

- You could even let MUs pick a specialty (at the same rate of progression as fighters' weapon specialization), which would give them a 10% bonus on specific topics, like Undead or the history of a particular country.

- Allow 0 Level Spells.

- Give MUs a chance to identify observed supernatural effects, such as magical traps that have been detected, or spells that have been cast (or about to be!). The rules are pretty vague about how magical items' properties are discovered. Maybe the above formula could be applied to this detection ability, given a minimum amount of time spent.

- MUs are also creators of magic items!

- I completely agree that the game is balanced, and that a caster's initial weakness at low levels is compensated by their power at higher levels of play. That said, why no 7th, 8th or 9th level spells? Has anyone published a PDF for them?

[shadowmane]

I know that bfrpg inheritted the combat oriented style of the older game but not all classes must be compared on a combat basis.
A 1st level fighter swings a sword at +1 plus att bonus.
Same for the 1st level mu.

Someone please tell me where this is in the rules? I'm looking in my rule book, and can't seem to find it. In fact, fighters seem to be pretty flat, with only their HP going up as they level up.

[Woe]

Someone please tell me where this is in the rules? I'm looking in my rule book, and can't seem to find it. In fact, fighters seem to be pretty flat, with only their HP going up as they level up.

The rate that classes receive their attack bonus is on page 47. Fighters' attack bonus progresses roughly double the rate of magic-users.

[Metroknight]

I have to agree with those that have replied about how the focus of MUs shouldn't be combat, especially at low-levels. If you want to enrich the class mechanically, here's a couple of things I was considering:

- MUs are storehouses of knowledge.

- You could even let MUs pick a specialty (at the same rate of progression as fighters' weapon specialization), which would give them a 10% bonus on specific topics, like Undead or the history of a particular country.

- Allow 0 Level Spells.

- Give MUs a chance to identify observed supernatural effects, such as magical traps that have been detected, or spells that have been cast (or about to be!).

- MUs are also creators of magic items!

- I completely agree that the game is balanced, and that a caster's initial weakness at low levels is compensated by their power at higher levels of play. That said, why no 7th, 8th or 9th level spells? Has anyone published a PDF for them?

I think all these points are covered in various supplements.

Libram Magicia (I think it is called that) has the 0 level rules and 7th level spells plus the rules for them.

I think there is a supplement that deals with magic item creation also, called artificer or something like that. I think there was a discussion in the forums somewhere about the magic users have the ability to detect magical traps and the sorcerer supplement deals with the observation of spells effects but that was mostly for them learning how to cast those spells so that is something to look at and expolate for your game.