Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

I was working on an "expert" class some time ago. As I understand it, Solo is working on a set of tweaks for thieves that include modifiers for ability scores and race. I was thinking that since it is under construction, we might send a few extra ideas to incorporate.

One that I think would be ideal, is the ability to drop certain 'thief abilities' in order to pick up others. For instance, lets suppose one wants a more outdoorsy style of thief. This player might drop the Open Locks ability in order to pick up a "Tracking" skill. A more spy oriented character might choose to swap something for a disguise skill. Having a readied list of alternate Thief abilities would be a great addition to the standard thief.

Here are some of my ideas that are drawn right from my work preparing an Expert Class for BFRPG:
Acrobatics
Animal Training
Disguise
Investigation/Sleuthing
Performance
Scribe/Forgery
Survival
Tracking

The abilities above just need percentages/level assigned, although I had originally wanted to revamp all the thief abilities to use a unified progression. Anyhow, it is just a thought that could be incorporated into a supplement for Thieves.

Oh yeah, one of the objects of the post was to inquire if there are other ideas that might enhance a Thief Supplement?? Share your thoughts.

I've been planning to write down my Thief Options supplement for some time. It would basically consist of tables of modifiers by race, an actual rule for applying ability bonuses to thief abilities, and possibly some bonuses for unarmored thieves (vs. those wearing leather).

Your ideas are interesting, to say the least.

Those suggestions were the ones that seemed the most Theiverish. Since I was crafting an Expert, I have others in my own text that cross over into other areas like professions and crafting, but if we are keeping things central to the thief, they might seem odd.

One could also play with alternatives or alterations to the basic backstab ability. Perhaps a subdual attack, or ranged sneak attack (sniper). With my expert ideas, I was onto stuff like Scroll use (similar to AD&D ability), Bard abilities, etc. I was trying to tie the abilities to the primary thief abilities... bard songs to performance skill. Scroll use to Scribe/Forgery skill. etc.

Just ideas anyhow.

Mimmicry (mimicing sounds and voices with accuracy; if you don't consider it a part of "disguise")
Ventriloquism (throwing your voice to a distance)

Some people do not like it when others try to "rewrite" the game or "codify" things too much. That is not what I intend here. So consider this as an idea for an "OPTIONAL TREATMENT OF THIEF SKILLS" concept -- something to encourage new ideas more than new rules.

Some people don't like thieves because of the percentile rolls and don't use them because they "interfere" with "role playing." That's part of the background behind my thoughts, but it is not the subject.

One thing I'm considering is how to have a thief without relying on die rolls (or in addition to them, as added flavor). And my answer so far is to give them straight physical benefits.

For example, define a baseline of how fast anyone can move quietly. Then allow theives to move twice as fast, and increase their speed with experience levels, up to a reasonable normal human maximum. Define how fast normal people can climb, then let a thief climb twice as fast. Apply that to an adventuring scenario, and a thief isn't just "more quiet" -- they can go scouting quietly ahead at twice the speed other people can move while trying to be stealthy.

Some tasks can be defined by how long it takes to perform them. If it takes a character a turn to look for a secret door, find a trap, try to disarm a trap or whatever -- a thief can try it in half the time. So, a thief can look for a secret door and check the area for traps as one turn. Not everyone tracks time, and sometimes time is not important, but extend that further by experience and a thief might do things characters normally cannot do because they are pressed for time. If they are trying to escape a temple of evil while alarms ring, the experienced thief can find a secret door, pick the lock on it, disarm the trap and get out while someone else is blundering around when guards come running up.

Apply benefits to outcomes. The chances of a thief setting off a trap (If the trap doesn't go off automatically) can be reduced. So, a normal person passing over (unkown to them) a pit trap might trigger it on a 1-2 on 1d6, but a thief moving carefully over it trying to avoid setting off any traps might only trigger it on a 1-2 on 1d8, 1d10, 1d12 or whatever by level.

A clever idea I read somewhere was where people were using "hear noises" as a chance to hear approaching guards; success meant that they would hear them twice as far off as normal (i.e. if the GM decided guards had to be 60' away before they could be heard, they would double it to 120' for a hear noise check). A thief's range of hearing might be extended to 90', 120', 150' and so on by level. The idea: set a basic, general rule of thumb and increase it for a thief.

Do enough of that, and even people who do not allow a thief because "it interferes with role playing by adding skill rolls I don't like" could look at and say, "Wait. Here's a way to handle a thief that is oriented around role playing, encourages smart play like scouting, and is easy to manage. And I don't need dice that much."

And someone playing a thief can do more than roll dice; thier character is more than percentile rolls. If they want to go scouting ahead, it's not just because they are "sneaky" -- it's also because they can move faster than most other characters and still be sneaky. They will volunteer to skinny up a wall not because of their "climb walls" percent, but because they can do it faster than others.

I've been thinking that something like that would be nice for a fake Moldvay/Cook Basic/Expert "Companion" set -- something reducing die rolls and increasing role playing, as if it was catering to more experienced players who are starting to ask for more in the game.

[PS, I can spell "thief" but my fingers can't. Sorry for the "theif"s and "theives"...]

I think a radical change like that might need its own supplement... but bring it on. Sounds interesting!

Didn't think I had that much material until I put it down. I'll probably write it out, share it on SCRIBD and take some time to clean it up and think on it, and post a version on the workshop or general discussion on Dragonsfoot to see what input it might drum up.

If it's suitable for a Basic Fantasy supplement, then offer it to be hosted there once it's worked out better.

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One things some people associate thieves with is appraising valuable items -- from my viewpoint, finding the better priced items and getting a good deal on them.

Another thing rarely considered is letting a thief improve in finding secret doors. Some people may by rote use find traps or that, but it's something to consider for a supplement of additional ideas for a thief.

Nice suggestions...

Appraisal is absolutely a good skill for any good fence.
Detect Secret Doors is something that I would roll into the Traps ability myself. But perhaps Detection and Manipulation ought to be separated. Detection might get some tweaks to notice small/concealed (invis too)/or even used for general awareness (like a vigilance skill). Manipulation might be expanded to include Disarming, lockpicking (albeit it is already a skill), and maybe include some tricks of gadgetry or clockworks. To me, the Open Locks and Remove Traps seem to be quite the same sort of skill set (agile manipulation), while noticing Traps seems to come from different qualities (perception and scrutiny).

Subtle changes to the skills like this does, however, change the nature of the game, and might make it less interchangeable with other versions of the game. We should probably keep to two different Supplements - One like Solo was suggesting where a few adjustments and perhaps some alternate abilities are presented. And one where a fundamental alteration to the Class (or perhaps even total class/skill redesign - akin to an Expert) can be presented.

And, Solo, while you are on the subject of tweaks to skills (specifically adjustments for Armor, Abilities, Etc) perhaps that would be a good place to describe some adjustments from certain pieces of equipment. For instance, what bonus would climbing claws give? Would a Jewelers' Magnifier aid disarm attempts. While I would not get into specifics for specific pieces of equipment (could go on forever), it might be a good place to describe something like "The GM may adjust the difficulty of some skill attempts if the character has additional specialized gear suited for the task."

I like chatdemons "Lock and Trap qualities" http://orcrpg.blogspot.com/2009/06/repo ... -trap.html. I know that when I play a thief I never try to remove a trap. The chance of success vs. the chance of failing and dying a horrible death is skewed way to far in the dying a horrible death direction.