Basic Fantasy RPG Core Rules 3rd Edition

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LibraryLass
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Re: Basic Fantasy RPG Core Rules 3rd Edition

Post Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:19 pm

I think you're right, thief skills are just a little more complicated than an untrained person can manage.

If I'm understanding Dimirag right he's definitely pointing in a useful direction as well.
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Hywaywolf
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Re: Basic Fantasy RPG Core Rules 3rd Edition

Post Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:38 pm

In my opinion the thinking shouldn't be that non-thieves should not be able to perform thief abilities, but instead non-thieves have very little chance at succeeding at thief skills. The first thinking tends to lead toward telling a player that his PC can't attempt something. That is my number one NO-NO by a GM. Tell me I have very little chance in surviving and I am fine. Don't tell me that there is no way that I can pick that lock, instead make it very unlikely that I can. In life there exist pure damn luck and "how the hell did that just happen" situations all the time.

When I was a kid there was a local skydiving exhibition where one of the jumpers chutes never opened, and he survived (and not just as a crippled vegetable). Youtube is full of videos of people who survived, unscratched, from the most horrendous accidents. And locked doors aren't very effective if the last guard through forgot to lock it back. Crazy shit happens in real life. We shouldn't try to prevent all "miracles" from happening in a game. With that said, the chance shouldn't be 1 on a 1d10 when a non-thief tries a thief skill. It should be 1 on a d20.

Another thought is to better define what a thief skill is. Climbing a ladder is not a thief skill. Climbing a knotted rope is not a thief skill. Hiding behind cover is not a thief skill. Just like wearing armor and swinging a sword is not a fighter skill that no one else can do. Its a skill that no one esle can do effectively.
danbuter
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Re: Basic Fantasy RPG Core Rules 3rd Edition

Post Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:59 pm

As-is, low level thieves have a less than 1 in 6 chance of actually doing a thief skill (outside climbing). That's my only real issue with them. If starting thieves had something like 30% in every skill, which increased slowly, I'd be very happy with them.

I also think thief skills could be split. Hide, Move Silently, and Climbing should be available to all classes (even though they would not be good at them). Things like pick pocket or traps should be thief-only, no matter what.
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Hywaywolf
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Re: Basic Fantasy RPG Core Rules 3rd Edition

Post Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:09 pm

danbuter wrote:As-is, low level thieves have a less than 1 in 6 chance of actually doing a thief skill (outside climbing). That's my only real issue with them. If starting thieves had something like 30% in every skill, which increased slowly, I'd be very happy with them.

I also think thief skills could be split. Hide, Move Silently, and Climbing should be available to all classes (even though they would not be good at them). Things like pick pocket or traps should be thief-only, no matter what.
Whats the difference between learning to free climb a wall with no easily seen handholds, pick pocket or find/remove traps? Both are skills you have to train to do. I will point out again that what you are missing is the thief skill climb is not climbing a tree or climbing a ladder. Those are things that anyone can do. What makes a thief skill is something you have to train for. Free climbing a cliff face. Hiding in plain sight (almost a magical skill). etc.
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Joe the Rat
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Re: Basic Fantasy RPG Core Rules 3rd Edition

Post Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:22 pm

Double barrel post!
Hywaywolf wrote:Whats the difference between learning to free climb a wall with no easily seen handholds, pick pocket or find/remove traps? Both are skills you have to train to do. I will point out again that what you are missing is the thief skill climb is not climbing a tree or climbing a ladder. Those are things that anyone can do. What makes a thief skill is something you have to train for. Free climbing a cliff face. Hiding in plain sight (almost a magical skill). etc.
I want to emphasize this. The thief ability isn't climb a tree or climb a ladder. It's Jason Bourne grout-grips, bloody monkey fist sacrifice holds in wedges, chimneying, and basically doing your best Peter Parker impersonation. A rough wall with almost no workable grips is their default surface. Now everyone should be allowed to try and climb things - and not always in need of an ability check. Go to ability rolls if success isn't guaranteed.

On sneaking - apparently base chance is 33% - a 2 in 6 chance of Surprising another party in an enconter. :D


Second, I've updated my potential item inclusions, and added some descriptive text I had on hand if needed. I also found the dimensions for belt pouches - we should to pick a size. I've left morningstar and flail on the list for now. I'm also highlighting things that get added. Is there anything else here that should definitely get a pass?
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Sir Bedivere
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Re: Basic Fantasy RPG Core Rules 3rd Edition

Post Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:33 pm

Joe the Rat wrote:Double barrel post!
Hywaywolf wrote:I will point out again that what you are missing is the thief skill climb is not climbing a tree or climbing a ladder. Those are things that anyone can do. What makes a thief skill is something you have to train for. Free climbing a cliff face. Hiding in plain sight (almost a magical skill). etc.
I want to emphasize this. The thief ability isn't climb a tree or climb a ladder. It's Jason Bourne grout-grips, bloody monkey fist sacrifice holds in wedges, chimneying, and basically doing your best Peter Parker impersonation. A rough wall with almost no workable grips is their default surface. Now everyone should be allowed to try and climb things - and not always in need of an ability check. Go to ability rolls if success isn't guaranteed.
Come on, no one is suggesting we make thieves roll to climb a LADDER. That's just ridiculous.

If what you guys suggest is how the thief's skills really work, the rules should say that very clearly. Otherwise, that's just your interpretation of the rules and nothing more. Some other GM is no more wrong for doing it differently than you are for doing it this way.

Either way, it seems that some clarification in the core rules would help.
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Hywaywolf
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Re: Basic Fantasy RPG Core Rules 3rd Edition

Post Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:44 pm

I am not saying that people are suggesting you roll dice to climb a ladder (although I have played in games where the DM did essentially that every time the thief climbed anything). What I am suggesting is that their is a difference between what a thief can do and what a non-thief can attempt. Free climbing a sheer cliff face being an extreme in one case and climbing a ladder an extreme in the other.
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Re: Basic Fantasy RPG Core Rules 3rd Edition

Post Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:45 pm

I'm still waiting to see a clean, presentable explanation that doesn't grow the rules any.
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Hywaywolf
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Re: Basic Fantasy RPG Core Rules 3rd Edition

Post Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:52 pm

In most cases I am in complete agreement with you about no GM is wrong for doing things differently than another. There is one exception though. I will say that any DM that says a PC can't attempt something is doing it wrong. Its not the DMs job to decide the choice of a PC unless that PC is charmed or something. Its their job to decide the outcome of that choice. So if someone wants to attempt a thief skill there is nothing in the rule book that says they can't attempt it. What exactly is a thief skill is up to the GM to decide.
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LibraryLass
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Re: Basic Fantasy RPG Core Rules 3rd Edition

Post Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:24 am

Hywaywolf wrote:In most cases I am in complete agreement with you about no GM is wrong for doing things differently than another. There is one exception though. I will say that any DM that says a PC can't attempt something is doing it wrong. Its not the DMs job to decide the choice of a PC unless that PC is charmed or something. Its their job to decide the outcome of that choice. So if someone wants to attempt a thief skill there is nothing in the rule book that says they can't attempt it. What exactly is a thief skill is up to the GM to decide.
Yup. Rule -1: Say yes or roll the dice.
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