BF1 Morgansfort

[Solomoriah]

Sorry, if I was little unclear on how the deaths occurred. The first one happened as the full party began to enter Room 12 from the West. The Elven Fighter/M.U. fell into the pit and died. The other two decided to go back to Room 1 and explore towards the west.

This was their error; loss of a party member is a good reason to retreat and seek assistance (i.e. a replacement PC).

They entered Room 3 and the Stirges attacked. After the first combat round, they decided to retreat. As they ran, the dwarf was killed. The thief managed to escape.

I'm not sure I would state they were foolish, rather just inexperienced. They didn't check for traps and the pit traps as designed don't give clues to their presence. Maybe I needed to give them some subtle warning to help them. After the pit encounter, they began to check along the passageways from Room 1 after figuring out how their friend died.

Good! This is how players learn. As to giving a subtle hint, yes, if you're training inexperienced players, it's good to give them a helping hand. Just be careful not to make it too much of a habit; AFTER the session is over, you may want to point out where you "helped" them, and mention that you won't necessarily make it that easy next time.

Also, I think the odds were not in their favor with these monsters. They were 1st level party with hit points of 3, 6, and 5. While the monsters' hit points are about the same, their group size is enough to make the player characters have to retreat from most encounters. Was that the intended design?

As I said earlier, it's probably as much a factor of party size as anything. I really should have marked it "4 to 8" player characters, and explained in the introduction that a smaller party might be able to succeed if they are higher level. My playtest groups consisted of a large (6 PC) group of inexperienced players, and a smaller (4 PC) group of experienced players. So if you'd like, tell your player's it's my fault.

I'll see to it that the next release updates those items.

I appreciate the XP suggestion but do you have some thoughts on how help them initially? Maybe scale down the number of monsters (thinking of groups) until they reach Level 2? Or reduce the monsters' hit points by some factor?

I'd recommend reducing numbers, rather than weakening the individual monsters, unless that just doesn't make sense.

Do you (on average) rescale dungeon encounters if the player number is one or two players short of the design? You mentioned 4 to 8 players as an update. I could have them encounter a friendly NPC to increase their party size.

With experienced players, I allow two PCs per player. This works really well at lower levels, where mortality is high... RPG theorists will tell you that you can't identify properly with two characters, but honestly in an old-school game you don't identify with your character very well until he or she has survived a couple of levels.

A friendly NPC or two is not a bad idea either. Or, you could allow your players to start with 2nd level characters. Incidentally, I'd recommend using XP totals rather than level counts for starting PCs at higher levels. For instance, give everyone 2500 XP; this starts almost everyone at 2nd level, but doesn't give an unfair advantage to an elven fighter/magic-user.

You mentioned that if one loses a man out of the party that they should retreat. Are you referring to retreating from the encounter or leaving the dungeon?

Generally, out of the dungeon.

In old-school games, low-level characters often have to do this a lot. Not very heroic, but you don't get to start being a hero.

Also, if the entire party dies and the players want to explore the dungeon with new characters, how do you reconcile the players' knowledge of the location with the characters' ignorance?

If you have a choice, don't kill them all.

Remember, you're running the monsters here. Assuming you're using one of the optional death rules, being reduced to 0 HP doesn't necessarily kill a character. Intelligent monsters may choose to bind the wounds of downed opponents, then hold them hostage; or, again depending on what rule you use, one or more characters might just wake up after the battle, stripped of valuables and standing at minimum HP (negative if you're using that rule). They drag themselves back to town, half naked and wounded. Roll dice like you're doing encounter checks, but don't bother to actually read them. The local NPC cleric might take pity on them and heal them, and with the addition of new PCs to replace those that did not survive, they could plan their return to the dungeon to take revenge and get their stuff back.

These are the things that stories are made of.

Sorry for all the questions. I appreciate all the advice so far.

Hey, no problem. Happy to be of assistance.

[SmootRK]

Just my opinion, but...

First level characters are weak, very weak. A first level character is just not being smart unless he tries to add some cannon fodder to the party. The MU should perhaps try to charm a couple of dumb people in a town (preferably not-so-good guys so he does not become a bad-guy himself). The Thief should not engage in melee without a backstab and retreat strategy. The Cleric should hire someone (on the cheap from his fellow faithful) assist him. The Fighter should have at least one if not more man-at-arms to assist. Even a dog or two can provide alerts for party and perhaps a couple of attacks against intruders before morale fails them in a fight.

The cost of such help is small against gains from adventuring. After a couple of levels the characters can manage better on their own (but may still hire folk to assist in minor ways (camp guards, stable-hands, squires, torch bearers, etc.).

[JoeCarr28]

I have to say, I broady agree with DamageCtrl - The Old Island Fortress is very unforgiving for new players. For example, you didn't have to pit trap every exit from the very first room. You didn't have to put "save or die" bees in perhaps the first room they'll enter (15). It's a great module for introducing experienced players to BFRPG. For me, it's a bit too "old school" for brand new players.

[Solomoriah]

Joe, you make a good point. Perhaps I need to rethink... I was in a sort of a B2 mode, if you get my drift, when I wrote it. If you've played that, you understand that it is also a bit unforgiving.

[SmootRK]

Perhaps some guidance that says "designed for 4 to 8 characters of 1st to 3rd (expect mortalities). Lowest level parties need to be larger, such as 8 first level characters; higher level parties can be smaller."

Perhaps also, at the town, there should be some mechanism for giving assistance such as an encounter or two of one or more npcs specifically looking for work, a young man who is looking to become a squire with one of the fighters, a pseudodragon who begins following a MU character, a religious fanatic who had a vision telling him to protect the party cleric... Etc. You get the point.

[JoeCarr28]

Joe, you make a good point. Perhaps I need to rethink... I was in a sort of a B2 mode, if you get my drift, when I wrote it. If you've played that, you understand that it is also a bit unforgiving.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the adventure and I think it does an excellent job of capturing the spirit of B2 and its ilk. I've no problem with that at all, particularly if that is what the players are expecting (i.e. they probably played B2 back in the day as well ).

By contrast, as you might have picked-up from one of my previous posts in another topic, I'm rather enamoured with the Pathfinder Beginner Box at the moment. The beginner adventure contained within that is what I would class as a true "beginner" adventure. The first enemies the party fights are 2 goblins - they present no real challenge, the party are supposed to win, BUT ... it eases new players into the basic ideas behind the combat round and the die rolling mechanics within it. With Old Island Fortress, everything from the very outset is life or death with very little margin for error or bad luck.

[Solomoriah]

Ah. You are lobbying for a "teaching" adventure.

I've never written one. Not even sure how. If you want to have a go at it, I'd be happy to publish it on the site. If you integrate it into the Morgansfort area, I'd even consider adding it to the official B1.

As far as the Olde Island Fortress goes, I might consider adding hints for the GM to make it a bit easier. For instance, something to allow the player characters to notice the pit traps.

[Joe the Rat]

That's something I've been puzzling over as well. I was planning on adapting one of the 1e starter modules from Dragonsfoot, but I'd love to have something a bit more red-bookish. New thread?

[JoeCarr28]

Ah. You are lobbying for a "teaching" adventure.

I've never written one. Not even sure how. If you want to have a go at it, I'd be happy to publish it on the site. If you integrate it into the Morgansfort area, I'd even consider adding it to the official B1.

As far as the Olde Island Fortress goes, I might consider adding hints for the GM to make it a bit easier. For instance, something to allow the player characters to notice the pit traps.

I guess you could put it like that, yes. But I don't think the teaching has, necessarily, to be explicit with explantory breakout boxes, etc. It really just needs to have some sort of suitable gradient to the challenge that accomodates player inexperience and doesn't punish their mistakes so harshly.

As it happens, I did start writing an adventure that was kind of along these lines last year. It's still very much a work in progress though and I simply haven't had time to work on it recently.

[JoeCarr28]

For instance, something to allow the player characters to notice the pit traps.

Or contrive something to mitigate the falling damage from the pit traps - perhaps 1d4 rather than 2d6 so they're less likely to kill a character outright. Perhaps the faller lands on some squishy depris, or the corpse of a goblin who fell victim to the trap recently.