Great Way Adepts

Creating game materials? Monsters, spells, classes, adventures? This is the place!
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Dimirag
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:11 pm

And I think this is where Dimirag is going with his opinion (if I read it correctly, please correct me if I am wrong).
No need for corrections, you got my point. I compare the classes on a "barebones" ways. The "can do" and not the "can do under external conditions"
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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JakeCWolf
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:25 pm

So I have to inquire, has anyone ever played a GWA in a game of Basic Fantasy and gotten them anywhere near level 20? Or been in a game where someone lived long enough to get that high level? And by "get that high level" I mean naturally, not just "okay we'll start you guys off at level for this One Shot" kinda thing.

It's hard for me to gauge how OP they may end up being at higher levels as I don't think many people have played one long enough to find out. Same could be said for a lot of classes honestly.
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artikid
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:18 pm

JakeCWolf wrote:So I have to inquire, has anyone ever played a GWA in a game of Basic Fantasy and gotten them anywhere near level 20? Or been in a game where someone lived long enough to get that high level? And by "get that high level" I mean naturally, not just "okay we'll start you guys off at level for this One Shot" kinda thing.

It's hard for me to gauge how OP they may end up being at higher levels as I don't think many people have played one long enough to find out. Same could be said for a lot of classes honestly.
I only GMed a few short games with levels going from 3rd to 5th.
However the GWA is a somewhat toned down variant of the classic Monk/Mystic from Ad&d/RC , so I guess it has quite solid roots.
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RachelTheSeeker
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:28 pm

Goodness, the debate on this one. o_o

I only have cursory knowledge on the GWA, but was looking into it more deeply recently, for an NPC I wanted to use in a 5th-level campaign. I don't know if anything I'm about to say won't just beat a dead horse, but here goes.

IMO, the number of unarmed attacks and their damage does get rediculous, but prior to level 4 or so they're kinda underwhelming. Low AC bonus, moral code restrictions, and low unarmed damage make it kinda... meh. I can see a lot of parallels between this and the monk from D&D 3rd edition -- they start kinda weak, and get good mid-level. Even though the monk (apparently) becomes mediocre in 3e at high levels, the Adept gets really strong at high levels here.

I can also agree with a statement that a lot of BFRPG games might not go on long enough for the Adept to get broken. I've noticed, looking through the 'official' materials that it's rare you'll get a monster of HD 10 or higher, and thus it'd make sense for players to not advance that far on average either. From my personal look-see at the Adept at 5th level, for the aforementioned NPC thing, they're not amazing but not terrible either.

Two unarmed attacks at a d6 which, if both hit, deal a l'il more potential damage than a two-handed large weapon (except the quarterstaff, which is a wussy of a large weapon)? AC that's higher than a rogue's on-average, with a higher die for HD? The ability to hit as if using silver weapons with one's fists and feet, and to heal a bit of HP per level? +2 damage with weapons if hand-to-hand isn't the best option? I don't see that as very overwhelming IMO.

A Cleric already has more utility -- the only thing a GWA might be better with is the damage output, and even then a Cleric with a maul and chainmail (or even plate armor, at that level) is not that much weaker. Not to mention, you need at least about an average score in four of the six ability scores to roll up an Adept anyway, which if doing it old-school as written in the core rules (not applying the more modern distribution nuances in the house rule suggestions in-book), means you might have to throw the dice for a while to get all four prerequisites fulfilled.

At the end of the day, I guess it depends on what the campaign's gonna be like. If sticking to low-level play, go for the GWA without any modification. Things seem to start getting ludicrous around 9th level, when you can throw a trio of d8 punches/kicks, have AC 19 as a base, and perhaps even with their ability to automatically lower AoE-style damaging effects.

...but yeah, again. Dunno if I'm beating a dead horse. x_x
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artikid
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:12 am

RachelTheSeeker wrote:Goodness, the debate on this one. o_o

I only have cursory knowledge on the GWA, but was looking into it more deeply recently, for an NPC I wanted to use in a 5th-level campaign. I don't know if anything I'm about to say won't just beat a dead horse, but here goes.

IMO, the number of unarmed attacks and their damage does get rediculous, but prior to level 4 or so they're kinda underwhelming. Low AC bonus, moral code restrictions, and low unarmed damage make it kinda... meh. I can see a lot of parallels between this and the monk from D&D 3rd edition -- they start kinda weak, and get good mid-level. Even though the monk (apparently) becomes mediocre in 3e at high levels, the Adept gets really strong at high levels here.

I can also agree with a statement that a lot of BFRPG games might not go on long enough for the Adept to get broken. I've noticed, looking through the 'official' materials that it's rare you'll get a monster of HD 10 or higher, and thus it'd make sense for players to not advance that far on average either. From my personal look-see at the Adept at 5th level, for the aforementioned NPC thing, they're not amazing but not terrible either.

Two unarmed attacks at a d6 which, if both hit, deal a l'il more potential damage than a two-handed large weapon (except the quarterstaff, which is a wussy of a large weapon)? AC that's higher than a rogue's on-average, with a higher die for HD? The ability to hit as if using silver weapons with one's fists and feet, and to heal a bit of HP per level? +2 damage with weapons if hand-to-hand isn't the best option? I don't see that as very overwhelming IMO.

A Cleric already has more utility -- the only thing a GWA might be better with is the damage output, and even then a Cleric with a maul and chainmail (or even plate armor, at that level) is not that much weaker. Not to mention, you need at least about an average score in four of the six ability scores to roll up an Adept anyway, which if doing it old-school as written in the core rules (not applying the more modern distribution nuances in the house rule suggestions in-book), means you might have to throw the dice for a while to get all four prerequisites fulfilled.

At the end of the day, I guess it depends on what the campaign's gonna be like. If sticking to low-level play, go for the GWA without any modification. Things seem to start getting ludicrous around 9th level, when you can
throw a trio of d8 punches/kicks, have AC 19 as a base, and perhaps even with their ability to automatically lower AoE-style damaging effects.

...but yeah, again. Dunno if I'm beating a dead horse. x_x
@RachelTheSeeker: not at all, any comment is welcome! Even those I -hopefully politely- disagree with.
At the moment I'm between a rock and a hard place with this one: I'd like to make something specifically suited to BFRPG with as much community consensus as possible AND at the same time port the old Monk/Mystic class to BFRPG.
Any comment brings its insights that help me shape the GWA more precisely.
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artikid
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:56 am

Latest take.
I think I addressed most if not all of the issues pertaining the Adept.
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Dimirag
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:23 pm

This is a great improvement, I like it
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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artikid
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:46 am

Ok, if there's no new feedback in a week or so I'll ask Solomoriah to upload it.
On the other hand... Chris, I know you are very busy, so, what if you deleted the Adept from the downloads page and I moved it to the Showcase?
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Solomoriah
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:25 am

I'm agreeable to that. I'm not sure this class is tested well enough for the Downloads page; it got grandfathered in when I created the Showcase.
My personal site: www.gonnerman.org
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artikid
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:16 pm

Solomoriah wrote:I'm agreeable to that. I'm not sure this class is tested well enough for the Downloads page; it got grandfathered in when I created the Showcase.
Well
It's a deal then :).
I'll create the showcase record and upload the files tomorrow. I'll be linking to this very thread.
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