Great Way Adepts

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Longman
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:25 pm

Hi artikid,

The high speed: in the old version, the monk (GWA) at 5th level with no armor can run at 120. Other characters in armor can run at 40. He runs for 2 rounds, they have to spend 5 rounds catching up! I think it's fun and reminds me of wire-work monks in movies, but it is very noticeable, like I said. It is not a minor feature of the class.

The AC: currently he has a better AC than a fighter in chain mail with a lower dex bonus!

Like mTeasdale says, we really only know from one PbP, so it's hard to tell from just one play-test. But instinct tells me this new version you have is a bit more balanced than the previous one.

Cheers.
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artikid
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:48 am

Longman wrote: The AC: currently he has a better AC than a fighter in chain mail with a lower dex bonus!
That was the idea actually.
Think that a GWA will never get bonus to AC due to magic items, and can't simply buy plate and shield as fighters and clerics do.
Likely has lower HP than Fighters and Clerics at comparable XP totals.
Alas feedback was kind of negative on this, that's why I lowered it.
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Dimirag
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:44 pm

The secret is, if they can't dodge an attack they'll lose their special AC ;)

I would go with progressions like these ones:
GWA.png
GWA.png (6.96 KiB) Viewed 906 times
I don't like to assume that fighters will have magic items with AC bonuses so I don't consider them while comparing armors.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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mTeasdale
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:13 pm

Dimirag wrote:The secret is, if they can't dodge an attack they'll lose their special AC ;)

I would go with progressions like these ones:
GWA.png
I don't like to assume that fighters will have magic items with AC bonuses so I don't consider them while comparing armors.
That would make them way too squishy if you ask me.
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Dimirag
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:07 pm

The file says their AC comes from their dodge ability, so, no dodge, no AC, even surprised they can dodge, so it becomes a matter of restraining his movement
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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artikid
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:49 am

Dimirag wrote:The secret is, if they can't dodge an attack they'll lose their special AC ;)

I would go with progressions like these ones:
GWA.png
I don't like to assume that fighters will have magic items with AC bonuses so I don't consider them while comparing armors.
Dimirag,
I think your suggestion makes GWAs too weak, by 16th level an old editions' monk had an ac of 0 (20 in BFRPG) and was still a glass cannon. At the same time they are expected to develop in front line fighters (although with a little HP less).
Again: clerics and fighters can get plate and shield quite easily and will probably accumulate some magic items while the GWA can't do either.
Your suggestion would make them even weaker than thieves for a long while and consider that at first level the GWA is almost as frail and weak as a Magic-user.
Also remember that to gain new levels (the ones with really big improvements) the GWA needs to beat his masters in a duel.
I could lower their higher level abilities if I got rid of the duel as prerequisite, but I'd like to see some more consensus on this (somebody, I think Smoot, already expressed his opinion on this and I can see the point of removing duels).
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Dimirag
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:45 am

The actual AC seems to high so I based my values on the core AC, as I said, I don't like him having a better AC than a fighter unless it came with a downside, and, not being able to increase his AC via magic is not a downside enough to me.

I think I have expressed by opinion on his leveling requirements before, it is this: remove them all, I prefer those thing being left to the setting
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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JakeCWolf
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:55 pm

I have to agree with artikid here, I think your progression makes them too weak, assuming we disallow all magical armor/items that could boost AC or allow some kind of invulnerability save (like Cloak of Displacement).

Also I find it foolhardy to assume that the party won't ever find magic items, they are adventurers after all, the very chances of survival can swing widely depending on the DM's mercy (or therefor lack of it) and the chance of the dice themselves. What I never place stake in is them getting to high level to begin with.

If the party levels past 10 they are already folk heroes, 15 they are living legends and if they reach 20 they have achieved a near mythical status, the odds of them not having something magical by those mile stones is a staggeringly low.

Even if they don't find any magic items they will just use their accumulated wealth to commission an NPC to make such items for them, being denied use of such items the GWA is at a noticeable disadvantage.

Here's my own take on progression assuming the no magical armor/AC granting items rule stays in effect;
NewGWAProg.png
NewGWAProg.png (22.65 KiB) Viewed 810 times
And here for reference is the current GWA's attack progression;
OldGWAAtkProg.png
OldGWAAtkProg.png (10.22 KiB) Viewed 809 times
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Dimirag
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:10 pm

Also I find it foolhardy to assume that the party won't ever find magic items
I don't assume no party ever will never find magical items, I just don't like to assume that every fighter in every possible game will. Assuming either end of the spectrum is not they way for me to do things.

Longman said that to him the AC was really high and I gave a possible solution using the values of the core equipment but didn't want to gave GWA an equal top AC, they already surpasses the Fighter in several areas.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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SmootRK
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Re: Great Way Adepts

Post Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:35 pm

I have a general philosophy that variants should not be better than the standard class at doing that single thing they exist for.

Basically meaning, other classes should not be better at basic fighting than fighters. Likewise, variant rogues should not be better at general thievery than actual Thief class, nor spell-casters better than MU. I mean this in overall generalities or overall ability, as there can be certain specialties where the variant class excel or are better than the standards. For instance, a hypothetical Archer subclass is definitely better at fighting with a bow than a non-specialized fighting person, but would likely be sub-par in a toe-to-toe melee.

And I think this is where Dimirag is going with his opinion (if I read it correctly, please correct me if I am wrong).

I like a monk sort of character, but I would approach the idea differently in many respects. This does not make me right, or mean that this is bad... just that I would do things differently (and have via some work in the latest draft of the quasi-class supplement; linked somewhere around here). Clearly many really like how it was done here, and I totally respect that!
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