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Re: Druids Supplement

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:47 am
by daryen
Perfect! That all works for me, and I will set that all up.

I will make modification to the Druid Supplement file to add the two new spells and the minor abilities. I will also go and make a couple minor edits (nothing of game-related substance; purely formatting) since I saw them anyway, and then call it a day for the Supplement.

I will then go to the Spell Supplement and add the new 7th level spells. I plan to just add the core 7th level spells to the Spell Supplement, and then put all of the rest into Libram Magica.

With these guidelines I will go to the Illusionist thread with my suggestions there.

Now, above you say:
In fact, that makes my decision for me. Unless someone can give me a very, very good reason, seventh level spells for both Druids and Illusionists should go into New Spells.
My primary defense is one word: Necromancer.
The Necromancer file includes 0-level and 7th-level spells directly in the Necromancer Supplement. If the class supplements should match the Base Rules, then this should be fixed. Yes, I am volunteering to do that.

And, again, thank you! Thank you for allowing me to contribute and thank you for the guidance in this effort. I greatly appreciate it. Again, if I run into anything where I do want to make a mechanical change to any degree, I will of course highlight the issue in the forum and ask for guidance.

Re: Druids Supplement

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:20 am
by Dimirag
The point of this is to add enough spells so you can do whatever you want with it. If there are only eight spells a level, you get what you get. If there are 12 and 15 spells per level, then you (the game master) can pick and choose what to include or drop. And, by having the idea of separate must-learn spells, you can switch those around.
BFRPG follows a simple basic principle: its easier to add than to remove, that is, don't make a supplement with the idea that some material can be omitted, unless the while supplement is about optional rules, or such content is presented as optional.
If 7th level spells are added it should be clearly noted that its an optional rule that must be used alongside with the 7th level spells for other spellcasting classes.
My primary defense is one word: Necromancer.
The Necromancer file includes 0-level and 7th-level spells directly in the Necromancer Supplement. If the class supplements should match the Base Rules, then this should be fixed. Yes, I am volunteering to do that.
I think that, yes, the supplement should be edited to match the core rules as possible, this is a common happening, creators share the class as they will use it, often while adding some extra rules to the core.

Re: Druids Supplement

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:53 am
by SmootRK
There is a section in the Libram Magica that specifically addresses the zero and 7th level spells, Necromancer may have something very similar. Perhaps something similar ought to be mentioned in the Druid Supplement if those additions are to actually be included.
While completely optional, some Game Masters allow the use of zero-level spells, essentially just very minor magical effects, called Cantrips for Magic-Users (including Illusionists & Necromancers), or Orisons for Clerics (or Druids). Also optional, seventh level spells are sometimes utilized in high level campaigns. Both are included in this libram for completeness, but neither is necessary for play.
My opinion mirrors Chris above. As an essentially official supplement, the class ought to be downright "basic", and that the overage/extra bits should be included in the appropriate Spells Supplement (or Libram or something akin to the MU Options Supplement).
This is not to say that Druid Spell List couldn't be altered slightly to have the most appropriate list of basic spells. There are weak spots that can easily be adjusted... but all the extra fluff should be elsewhere.

Saying that, I would not be against Necromancer getting an update to match the agreed upon methodology. Just the basics, and perhaps the extra 7th and Zero bits get ported over elsewhere. Perhaps the MU Options Supplement can get an expansion/new look. Illusionist, Necromancer, (or others like Fey-Mage) might get sections within that work (perhaps renaming "Arcane Options").

Of course, all just proposals and perhaps places where our enthusiastic newer members can find spots to develop?! I certainly don't mean to bring anyone's enthusiasm levels down at all!

Re: Druids Supplement

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:32 am
by daryen
You certainly aren't bringing my enthusiasm levels down!

Here is what I plan on doing because of this:
1) I am updating the Druid Supplement to add two extra sixth level spells, the extra minor abilities, and a few typos I found.
2) I will update Necromancer to drop them to just 1-6 spell levels and move the extra spells into Spell Supplement.
3) I will update the Illusionist to beef up their 1-6 spell lists.
4) I will update the Spell Supplement to include seventh level spells for the three above, plus add more for Clerics.

Once I get done with all of that, I'll revisit the Spell Supplement and Libram Magica to put in the rest of the spells I suggest.

Now, Smoot mentioned the idea of perhaps revisiting the Druid spells. I honestly have about a half-dozen suggestions I'd like to make. I'll list those after this message. Once that is settled, I'll submit my revision of the Druid Supplement.

Question: In the case of the submitting the update for the Druid Supplement, how do I do that? Do I post it as an attachment to a post here? Do I email them somewhere? What is the process for that?


Re: Druids Supplement

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:50 am
by daryen
There are three things that really stand out to me in the Druid spell list that I would like to change.

1) First the easy one: I would like to replace the spell "Dispel Evil" with "Dispel Magic". Dispel Evil is particularly focused on outsiders, which makes no real sense for Druids. They are grounded in the natural world, so having this one-off spell dealing with them doesn't fit well. Instead, I'd like to replace it straight up with Dispel Magic. This does have a long association with the Druid classes, and its pretty useful. So, I'd like to do a one-for-one swap on it.

2) Second one is really a sneaky way to get an extra spell: I would like to make Heat Metal reversible, so that it includes Chill Metal. The damage chart remains unchanged; it just causes frostbite damage instead of burning.

3) Third one is a little more subjective, but here it is: I'd like to replace Wall of Fire with Wall of Thorns. Wall of Thorns just seems a little more thematic, and in the 3.5SRD both Wall spells are the same spell level.

Re: Druids Supplement

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:11 am
by daryen
Hey ... I just noticed that the Necromancer Supplement includes some magic items. Can I add some Druid-specific magic items? They'd all be either standard stuff that already exists in the SRD, or very specific items.

- Staff of the Woodlands
- Dryad's Slippers
- Druidic Vestment
- Description of Druidic potions
- List of items in main book they can use (e.g. Snake Staff and Staff of Healing)

Re: Druids Supplement

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:43 am
by gg2
1) I disagree, the Druid can be considered as a protector of the Material Plane... for him extraplanar creatures do not belong to this plane and therefore do not have to interact with it.
As specified for the spell, it is necessary to define the Evil for the caster... and I tend to consider that the Evil for a druid is rather what comes to disturb the natural order of the Material Plane. So for him the spell could work against all outsiders, Infernal as Celestial or undead who draw their energy from the Negative Plane.
I find that as a guardian of the natural order, Dispel Evil is perfectly adapted, especially to "counter" and "banish" intruders comming from a other plan, more likely than Dispel Magic because magic is also natural.

Re: Druids Supplement

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:17 pm
by daryen
If you want to redefine Dispel Evil to work that way in your game, go for it. But, if you go by the rules, it very specifically states, "... aids the caster in dealing with creatures from the nether planes". While nether planes is somewhat open, it specifically is a "plane" of some sort, and, therefore, not of this world. Really, it has to be a creature than can be banished to another entire plane. That specifically doesn't apply to undead, at the least. To be honest, had this actually applied to undead, I would not make that request. But it doesn't. So, I am.

Dispel Magic is just way more useful for a Druid, and it is definitely in-theme.

Re: Druids Supplement

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:16 pm
by gg2
In my interpretation, I fully agree that it does not banish the undead, but the spell retains its other (still very interesting) possibilities. The undead do not belong to the natural order, the energy that animates them is not "natural" and comes from elsewhere.

But either we discard what concerns the undead. :) You're right, that's quite an interpretation on my part.

Nevertheless, I still find that it's more suited to the role of guardian of the natural order than the Dispel Magic.
Even if the Dispel Magic was more useful (which I'm not sure about), for me the "useful" side doesn't come into play when it comes to religion. I really think that in the guardian perspective of the druid the banishment of creatures from other planes is more in the idea than the Dispel Magic. It corresponds more to the credo of the druid (a specialist) for me, whereas the Dispel Magic is very "generalist".

but it's all about interpreting the role of the druid... :)

Re: Druids Supplement

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:39 pm
by daryen
Well, the final paragraph does provide leeway. Really, if the druid can consider all extraplanar creatures as "opposing the caster" and the +4 AC bonus also applies to undead, then, yes, Dispel Evil is incredibly useful and potentially more useful than Dispel Magic. And I would withdraw that particular suggestion.

But the first sentence completely undercuts that, and leaves it only focused on demons and devils (and such), which heavily limits its utility for a druid. In which case I'd want to swap it out.

I guess we both have to wait for someone to notice and decide which direction is best for that request. :)

And don't forget: Which ever one gets "rejected" still gets included in the New Spells Supplement, so there's always that to keep in mind. Nothing is truly going away. It's just a matter of what is emphasized and what isn't, and where everything is put.