Druids Supplement

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daryen
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Re: Druids Supplement

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:23 pm

OK, I made the first draft of the spell list update I'd like to see for the Druids. I will make three consecutive posts:
- This one as an introduction.
- The next one with the list of spells and inline notes.
- The third one where I highlight many of the additions.

As an introduction, the first thing I did was take the base spells from the Druid Supplement and treat them as locked and fixed, with a single exception. There were others I wanted to change, but I did not. The only one I changed was to make Speak with Animals be a 1st level spell instead of a 2nd level spell. This is because every source I have ever seen has always had it be 1st level, and it seems like a pretty fundamental ability for a druid. So, I changed it. Everything else, all 45 spells, are completely unchanged and worked around.

I did draw a few from Libram Magica, though not as many as I thought I would. I didn't understand a lot of decisions that were made, so I instead picked what seemed to fit the best and left the rest. It was a great help in doing this, though.

The other two sources I used were AD&D 1e (1e) and the 3.5 SRD (3.5SRD). For the most part, I looked for spells that were in both of them and favored them heavily. In a few rare cases I did pull a spell that only appears in 1e or the 3.5SRD, but there are explanations for each of them.

In no cases do I yet have the descriptions. For those taken from the Druid Supplement or Libram Magica, I will obviously use the existing descriptions. If I ever want to make changes, I will bring them up individually later. For the most part, I don't imagine needing to do that.

On the spell lists, I have ended up with the following breakdowns:
First through Third level spells: Each has 15 spells; 10 marked with a + and 5 not.
Fourth through Seventh level spells: Each has 12 spells; 8 marked with a + and 4 not.
The purpose of the + is that only those spells will be numbered in the list. (Do note that every single spell from the existing Druid Supplement all have a +.) The ones without a + will not be numbered. The reason is because only the ones with a + are commonly found and known to everyone. The extra 5 or 4 spells not numbered have to be found, bought, or researched. No druid can access them by default. (Note that this could change to 12/3 and 10/2 or 12/3 and 8/4 if so desired. The main point is to make sure the first number is 8, 10, or 12 and that at least a couple are not numbers so the druid has things to hunt for or research.)

With that introduction, on to the spell list ...
daryen
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Re: Druids Supplement

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:23 pm

First Level:
+Animal Friendship - From Druid Supplement
+Create Water - From Druid Supplement
+Cure/Cause Light Wounds - From Druid Supplement
Decomposition - From Libram Magica
+Detect Magic - From Druid Supplement
+Detect Snares and Pits - From Druid Supplement
Endure Elements - From 3.5SRD; provides character protection from elements
+Entangle - From Druid Supplement
+Fairie Fire - From Druid Supplement
+Goodberry - From 1e/3.5SRD; provides base-line sustenance
Light/Darkness - From Libram Magica
+Pass Without Trace - From Druid Supplement
Purify Food and Water - From Libram Magica
Shillelagh - From 1e/3.5SRD; makes improvised weapon temporarily "real"
+Speak With Animals - From Druid Supplement (but lowered a level)

Second Level:
Animal Messenger - Modified from Libram Magica; from 3.5SRD
+Barkskin - From 1e/3.5SRD; provides some defense.
+Charm Animal - From Druid Supplement
+Find Traps - From Druid Supplement
Fire Trap - From 1e/3.5SRD
Flame Blade - From 1e/3.5SRD; used instead of Libram Magica Flame Weapon
Forest Speak - From Libram Magica
+Heat/Chill Metal - From Druid Supplement
+Obscuring Mist - From Druid Supplement
+Produce Flame/Cold - From Druid Supplement
+Restore Health - From Libram Magica [same as 3.5 Lesser Restoration]
+Slow Poison - From Druid Supplement
Tree Shape - From 1e/3.5SRD
+Wood Shape - From 3.5SRD; seems useful
+Warp Wood - From Druid Supplement

Third Level:
+Assume Animal Form - From Druid Supplement
+Call Lightning - From Druid Supplement
+Cure Disease/Contagen - From Druid Supplement
Continual Light/Darkness - From Libram Magica
+Entangling Thorns - From Libram Magica
Faerie Messenger - From Libram Magica [was Sidhe Messenger]
+Hold Animal - From Druid Supplement
+Neutralize Poison/Poison - From Druid Supplement
+Plant Growth - From Druid Supplement
+Protection From Fire - From Druid Supplement
Quench - From 3.5SRD [similar to Cloudburst in 1e]
Snare - From 1e/3.5SRD
Spike Growth - From 1e/3.5SRD
+Stone Shape - From 3.5SRD; kinda pairs with Wood Shape
+Water Breathing - From Druid Supplement

Fourth Level:
+Call Woodland Beings - From Druid Supplement
+Control Temperature - From Druid Supplement
+Cure/Cause Serious Wounds - From Druid Supplement
Dispel Magic - From 1e/3.5SRD
Hold Plant - From 1e for ole timey flavor
Ice Storm - From 3.5SRD; works more like Call Lightning than Fireball
+Lower Water - From Druid Supplement
+Protection from Lightning - From Druid Supplement
+Speak With Plants - From Druid Supplement
Sticks to Snakes - From Libram Magica
+Summon Animals I - From Druid Supplement
+Tree Sanctuary - From Druid Supplement

Fifth Level:
+Commune with Nature - From Druid Supplement
+Control Winds - From Druid Supplement
+Dispel Evil - From Druid Supplement
+Flame Strike - From Druid Supplement
+Growth of Animals - From Druid Supplement
Hallow - From 3.5SRD; allows Druids to concecrate their Groves
Insect Plague - From 1e/3.5SRD
+Rock to Mud/Mud to Rock - From Druid Supplement
Stoneskin - From 3.5SRD; kind of a super-Barkskin
+Summon Animals II - From Druid Supplement
+Wall of Fire - From Druid Supplement
Wall of Thorns - From 1e/3.5SRD [uses 3.5 level]

Sixth Level:
+Animate Natural Object - From Druid Supplement
Circle of Healing/Harming, Lesser - From Expanded Spells and 3.5SRD
+Find the Path - From Cleric spells and 3.5SRD
Liveoak - From 1e/3.5SRD
+Part Water - From Druid Supplement
+Pass Tree - From Druid Supplement
+Reincarnate - From Druid Supplement
Repel/Turn Wood - From 1e/3.5SRD
+Summon Animals III - From 1e and extends the I and II spells from Druid Supplement
Wall of Stone - From 3.5SRD; kinda extends Walls of Fire and Thorns.
+Weather Summoning - From Druid Supplement
+Word of Recall - From Druid Supplement

Seventh Level:
+Circle of Healing/Harming, Greater - From Expanded Spells and 3.5SRD
+Changestaff - From 1e/3.5SRD
+Conjure Elemental - From 1e/3.5SRD (combines Fire and Earth from 1e into 3.5 generic)
+Control Weather - From 1e/3.5SRD
Creeping Doom - From 1e/3.5SRD; really too cool not to use
Faerie Ring - From Libram Magica
Finger of Death - From 1e/3.5SRD
+Fire Storm - From 1e/3.5SRD
+Regeneration - From Libram Magica
+Restoration - From Libram Magica
Sunburst - From 1e/3.5SRD [called Sunray in 1e]
+Transmute Metal to Wood - From 1e/3.5SRD
daryen
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Re: Druids Supplement

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:29 pm

Now, for any explanations. Anything sourced from the Druid Supplement or Libram Magic will not be commented on as they are what they are already. That they exist implies they are already accepted, so no explanation or justification should be required for them.

First Level:
Endure Elements - From 3.5SRD; provides character protection from elements
This would seem to be a very helpful spell. I didn't use Resist Cold from Libram Magica because it provides protection against natural and unnatural cold. That seems pretty strong for a first level spell. Endure Elements only protects against natural conditions; it is purely utilitarian, but something characters would use.

+Goodberry - From 1e/3.5SRD; provides base-line sustenance
This is pretty fundamental to D&D and provides druids with a way to magically get food and a side bonus of minor healing.

Shillelagh - From 1e/3.5SRD; makes improvised weapon temporarily "real"
This is a fundamental spell that really helps give them some options on weapons. A nice first level combat bonus.

+Speak With Animals - From Druid Supplement (but lowered a level)
As mentioned in the intro, this is the only spell from the Druid Supplement I modified. It really should just be a first level spell as it is such a fundamental ability for druids.

Second Level:
Animal Messenger - Modified from Libram Magica; from 3.5SRD
It just seems more on-theme for a druid to have an animal messenger, rather than just sending a magical message. So, I imported it from 3.5.

+Barkskin - From 1e/3.5SRD; provides some defense.
As with Shillelagh, this is a fundamental druid combat spell from the very beginning. To be honest, I am kinda surprised that both were not part of the Druid Supplement from the start.

Fire Trap - From 1e/3.5SRD
This is oddly a basic druid spell from the beginning. So, I included it.

Flame Blade - From 1e/3.5SRD; used instead of Libram Magica Flame Weapon
Libram Magica has Flame Weapon, which turns a druid's weapon into a flaming weapon. I think Flame Blade works better because it doesn't require the presence of a weapon. The whole thing is created out of nothing. That provides better utility to an otherwise unprepared druid. Plus, it is as old as 1.5e, so it's a pretty old spell.

Tree Shape - From 1e/3.5SRD
It is just called Tree in 1e. But it is a nice hiding spell for a druid. It gives conditional utility, so it seems natural to include.

+Wood Shape - From 3.5SRD; seems useful
I included Wood Shape as it pairs well with Stone Shape later on, and it provides druids with some more basic utility that can also be sometimes leveraged while adventuring. Plus, druids need more spells that show their ties to wood and stone.

Third Level:
Faerie Messenger - From Libram Magica [was Sidhe Messenger]
I simply renamed this as there is no obvious tie to the Sidhe; rather it is just a faerie messenger. Thus the name change. It works nicely as an upgrade over Animal Messenger.

Quench - From 3.5SRD [similar to Cloudburst in 1e]
This, in different forms, has always existed as a druid spell, plus it is extremely useful for putting out even magical fires. It just seems too on-theme to ignore, and is one of the few ties to water for druids.

Snare - From 1e/3.5SRD
A minorly useful spell from the beginning. Honestly, I included it so I could keep the number of spells where I wanted.

Spike Growth - From 1e/3.5SRD
This is a nice defensive spell that has always been around, so here it is.

+Stone Shape - From 3.5SRD; kinda pairs with Wood Shape
As stated with Wood Shape, this helps give the druid more ties to wood and stone, and is useful with other spells that come later.

Fourth Level:
Dispel Magic - From 1e/3.5SRD
Druids always had the ability to use Dispel Magic, so I want to make sure it is available to them.

Hold Plant - From 1e for ole timey flavor
This only existed in 1e. Honestly, if there is a better spell to include, I am more than willing to include it.

Ice Storm - From 3.5SRD; works more like Call Lightning than Fireball
This is a 3.5-only spell, but it works like Call Lightning and seems like a good fit, and gives them something to use that isn't fire or lightning. It broadens a druid's options, but works like their other spells, rather than a magic-user spell.

Fifth Level:
Hallow - From 3.5SRD; allows Druids to concecrate their Groves
This is from 3.5 only, but seems to otherwise be a miss from prior editions. Druids are supposed to have holy groves and places that are significant and special. This is the spell that allows them to actually have magical specialness.

Insect Plague - From 1e/3.5SRD
Seems on-theme for druids and has been aroudn forever.

Stoneskin - From 3.5SRD; kind of a super-Barkskin
This is 3.5-only, but ties in nicely as an improvement of Barkskin, plus continues to build on the wood/stone themes around druids.

Wall of Thorns - From 1e/3.5SRD [uses 3.5 level]
A basic natural companion to Wall of Fire, but without being quite as destructive. 1e has it a level higher, but I chose to use the 3.5 level for it.

Sixth Level:
Circle of Healing, Lesser - From Expanded Spells and 3.5SRD
This is called Cure Minor Wounds, Mass in 3.5, but I just took it from the Expanded Cleric spell list. It helps keep the druid able to be a secondary healer when needed.

+Find the Path - From Cleric spells and 3.5SRD
This is just the Cleric spell available to druids. Note that the game only included this in 3.5, not 1e, but it seems on-topic for druids, so I included it.

Liveoak - From 1e/3.5SRD
Another very fun, on-theme spell that fits very well.

Repel/Turn Wood - From 1e/3.5SRD
This just seems to be missing, and has been around since the beginning.

+Summon Animals III - From 1e and extends the I and II spells from Druid Supplement
Oddly, the Druid Supplement includes the I and II versions of the spell, but then didn't include the III. This is to put the III in.

Wall of Stone - From 3.5SRD; kinda extends Walls of Fire and Thorns.
This is only from 3.5, but it builds upon the presence of the Wall fo Fire and Wall of Thorns. Plus, it is exceptionally useful, so here it is.

Seventh Level:
+Circle of Healing, Greater - From Expanded Spells and 3.5SRD
Since I included the Lesser, here is the Greater.

+Changestaff - From 1e/3.5SRD
Surprisingly, this has been around since 1.5. This is basically a version of Liveoak where you get to bring it with you.

+Conjure Elemental - From 1e/3.5SRD (combines Fire and Earth from 1e into 3.5 generic)
1e has separate spells for conjuring a fire elemental, and conjuring an earth elemental. To keep things a little more flexible, I just combined them into a single Conjure Elemental that works for any kind of elemental.

+Control Weather - From 1e/3.5SRD
This is ridiculous on-theme and around from the beginning. Here it is.

Creeping Doom - From 1e/3.5SRD; really too cool not to use
Again, on-theme and around from the beginning. Plus, it is just so cool. It provides an awesome visual of a nasty carpet of destruction.

Faerie Ring - From Libram Magica
This is from Libram Magica and, as it blatently states, is a tool to allow for transport to the land of faerie (and back).

Finger of Death - From 1e/3.5SRD
This has existed from the beginning. It is a save-or-die spell, though.

+Fire Storm - From 1e/3.5SRD
Again, this is from the beginning and is pretty on-topic.

+Regeneration - From Libram Magica
+Restoration - From Libram Magica
Both of these are from Libram Magica, and while they are perfectly faithful to 1e and 3.5SRD, they do fit and so I kept them.

Sunburst - From 1e/3.5SRD [called Sunray in 1e]
Again, another "death from above" like Call Lightning and Ice Storm. It fits and works with that line of spells.

+Transmute Metal to Wood - From 1e/3.5SRD
This just has to be included. It has been around since the beginning, and is very on-topic for a druid.
Seven
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Re: Druids Supplement

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:34 pm

BFRPG is based on material that predates the Advanced version of the game. So maybe the druid here is more like something from the Eldritch Wizardry supplement?

Personally, I've stated this before, I don't allow my druids access to any fire magic.
That's Prometheus/Judo-christian/fire god stuff. Most feral druids spend their times slaughtering fools who don't quench their fires properly. You can argue that it's normal for forests to burn eventually, that's true. But the druid's crowd, the treants, the dryads, the pixies, etc... none of them will agree with you.
daryen
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Re: Druids Supplement

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:00 pm

Well, two things:

1) Yes, BFRPG is completely inspired from D&D (no A). However, it takes inputs from all fronts. For example the "circle of healing" spells are just "cure wounds, mass" from 3.5SRD. Plus, I have to work with the source materials I have at hand. That includes a version with the A.

2) Fire would seem to be an intrinsic part of at least some druid views. Just because they are nature-boys doesn't mean they don't like to cook their food or (responsibly) use fire. They are opposed to uncontrolled and unleashed fires. Pretty much all of what is included above are more controlled. No fireballs here. They are much more focused. (And no fire means no lightning, as lightning is the #1 source of natural fires. I don't see druids getting rid of lightning.) Plus, I made sure Quench was included for just such contingencies. ;)

3) The point of this is to add enough spells so you can do whatever you want with it. If there are only eight spells a level, you get what you get. If there are 12 and 15 spells per level, then you (the game master) can pick and choose what to include or drop. And, by having the idea of separate must-learn spells, you can switch those around.

Actually, looking at that third point, maybe I should move some of the more wild fire orient spells into the extras and replace them with something else for the "numbered" spells. Would that help?

EDIT: OK, I "cheated" and took a quick look at Eldritch Wizardry, and I don't think I can get any older than that. The 1e spells I know of and worked with are that old, and even in Eldritch Wizardry it has the same "start fire" spells and exactly zero "stop fire" spells. So, really, the 1e spell list is remarkably faithful to the spells given in Eldritch Wizardry.
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SmootRK
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Re: Druids Supplement

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:08 pm

I did a lot of work on this supplement and the Libram Magica... so I am very happy to see both of these getting some new attention. Druid is on the regular downloads area, so make sure chiisu81 gets a chance to look over and he can update the download.

Libram is showcase, so I suppose once edits are entered you can send/share with me and I can modify that listing.

Again, happy to allow some fresh input on these. When you are finished, consider bringing your enthusiasm over to the Necromancer too.
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daryen
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Re: Druids Supplement

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:45 pm

I want to hit the Illusionist first, just because they are also missing the seventh level spells, but, sure, I'll go look at the Necromancer, too. My main motivation was just that both the Druid and Illusionist are missing out on seventh level spells (and 0-level, to be honest) and I just wanted to see them brought up to the same standards as Cleric and Magic-User.

I do have to admit that I want more Cleric seventh level spells, too. Maybe I'll toss some of them out there, too. But, I have to do things one at a time or I'll get nowhere.

I do have a process question, however: What is the process for modifying an existing contribution?

I posted the suggested spell list (though after finding a brief look at the original druid from Eldritch Wizardry, I want to modify it a tad) because I wanted to get some input on it first. Before I go through the detail for each spell (which will require some real massaging, I am sure), I wanted to make sure the base spell list is OK. If there is a problematic or worthless spell (looking at you, Hold Plant) that should get tossed or replaced, I thought it would be good to find out before actually writing the spell descriptions.

Likewise, I specifically state my starting assumptions in the first post of page 9 so that it would be known where I am coming from, and what my approach is. Is the idea of trying to keep the number of "rollable" spells to 8, 10, or 12 good? Is the idea of trying to keep the number of spells relatively consistent (15 each for the first three levels; 12 for the last four levels) reasonable, or is such imposed consistency not worth the effort? Are my sources good?

I just want to make sure I am doing things correctly and following the rules before doing something that can't be accepted because I did something incorrectly. I am new to this forum and this specific game, and I acknowledge that. I am not, however, new to D&D in general, games in general, or writing rules in general. But having done it elsewhere is just *more* reason for me wanting to make sure I am following the correct approach and process.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Druids Supplement

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:34 pm

Your enthusiasm is fine. However, note that this is a Downloads page supplement, meaning it is already held to a fairly high standard for balance. Secondly, it's MY supplement, one of the very first, so I am justifiably concerned it not become something else entirely.

With that being said, I do want to incorporate at least some of your suggestions, if not all of them. Every spell will be scrutinized, every change carefully considered, right here in this thread.

The main issue is, I need to read your voluminous posts in detail first, before I can comment on directions forward. And I know you're champing at the bit to get going on this, and I don't want to waste that, so I promise I will spend some time going over your proposal and I will post a reply with a roadmap forward, and soon. This, despite the fact that I'm the main holdup with half a dozen other projects right now... they're in our standard development rotation, and will be fine until I get to them, while you are ready to work on this thing now.
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Re: Druids Supplement

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:37 pm

Seven wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:34 pm
BFRPG is based on material that predates the Advanced version of the game.
Not exactly. Remember, the "advanced" game of which you speak was released piecemeal starting in 1977; the game I remember, and which I chose to mimic, was released in 1981.

Our druid is unlike either the original or "advanced" druid in many ways, by design.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Druids Supplement

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:46 pm

Okay, comment #1... too many spells. The supplement Druid should not have more than 12 in any list, and honestly to be fair to the standard Cleric, should have a flat 8 per level; the New Spells supplement OR Libram Magica can be used to expand both their lists. Your original post on the subject suggests two specific spells for level 6, and they look fine to me. The extra, overflow spells can be added to the New Spells supplement (and Smoot will likely sweep them up into Libram Magica as well).

Your original post also suggested three special abilities. I'm fine with the first two; not entirely sure they even need to be detailed beyond mentioning they can do them, and I'd go ahead and grant them at first level. I disagree that the Woodland Stride ability doesn't affect the class balance, though... it's one extra ability that actually matters, putting them a notch above standard clerics, who get no bonus abilities of the same type.

Filling in details on the Rock to Mud spell would be fine. I'm not sure I thought it needed explained, but it should be complete I suppose.

I'm on the fence about where, exactly, seventh level spells for optional subclasses should be listed. For consistency, they should go with the other seventh level spells in New Spells, but practicality suggests putting them in the Druid supplement. Open to suggestions from the crowd here. Naturally, the same decision should be made the same way for Illusionists.
The point of this is to add enough spells so you can do whatever you want with it. If there are only eight spells a level, you get what you get. If there are 12 and 15 spells per level, then you (the game master) can pick and choose what to include or drop. And, by having the idea of separate must-learn spells, you can switch those around.
Here's the thing: Supplement classes must balance with core classes "as is," that is, requiring no other supplements. This is why you can't give the Druid more useful powers and/or more spells per level in their own supplement... because then, they are better than the core class they are subbed from. Secondly, we never assume the GM will choose to remove anything... supplements are explicitly additive as much as possible, with the main exception of Magic-User Options (and as far as I can figure there's no help for that).

In fact, that makes my decision for me. Unless someone can give me a very, very good reason, seventh level spells for both Druids and Illusionists should go into New Spells. There, rules focused on a class your GM is not using are omitted "automatically" whereas, if included in the class supplement, they are "automatically" active and must be specifically removed, an extra headache for the GM.

NOW, with all that said... I'm very interested in seeing these additions made in New Spells. That supplement should really handle at least the relevant supplementary classes from the Downloads page.

The only other thing I can think to mention is, be sure you don't copy from any original source other than the SRD when writing descriptions. You say you've done this before, so I assume you know that already, but I kind of have to say it anyway.
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