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Re: Magic-User Options

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:16 pm
by SmootRK
Solomoriah wrote:A thought just occurred to me...

A magic bolt is, well, magic, right?

So it hits monsters affected by magic weapons?
Ack... something else to address in my house rules! I have to give it some thought. First thoughts say No (for game balance) but how to rationalize that intelligently may take me a moment.

"While the Arcane Bolt is produced in a similar way to other sorts of magic (spells), once the effect is launched it instantly becomes a non-magical force in its own right. It cannot be used against foes with immunity to non-magical weaponry."

I might relax this for the higher level versions of the effect where the mage takes on additional energy types, or simply give the option to make the effect "magical" (sacrificing one such choice of energies)... still thinking this out.

Re: Magic-User Options

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:21 pm
by LibraryLass
Solomoriah wrote:A thought just occurred to me...

A magic bolt is, well, magic, right?

So it hits monsters affected by magic weapons?
Maybe, but then so do spells. To use an analogy magic-users are one key to that particular lock.
Edit: Smoot's the one who proposed the rule so I'll go with his interpretation.

Re: Magic-User Options

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:04 pm
by Solomoriah
Yes, but a normal magic-user has a limited number of spells per day; with this rule, a low-level magic-user has an advantage over a fighter, cleric, or thief who has not yet found a magic weapon.

Re: Magic-User Options

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:08 pm
by dymondy2k
Solomoriah wrote:
dymondy2k wrote:Prescriptive = Bolt-On.. I think you nailed the reason why I use some supplements and not others.
Elaborate, please.
I like the supplements that I can just "bolt-on" to the core rules that don't neccessarily supercede them but work with them.. Constructive seems to be more of the 'We've changed the rule mechanic from the core rules so do this instead'

Re: Magic-User Options

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:18 am
by Sir Bedivere
SmootRK wrote: ... To me, several of your proposed tweaks change the core rules, while I propose stuff (as Solomoriah has said regarding the new upcoming 3rd edition) that does not invalidate or change the core rules... but simply layers onto those rules. Perhaps that is the better way to describe my paradigm.
I would suggest things that layer upon the existing class framework without changing the nature of the core rules as written (when possible).
This really is a good description, and it changes how I see things.

Take the Arcane Bolt, for example. The insistence by Smoot and others on making the MU make a normal combat roll to see if it hits has been frustrating for me because none of the reasons offered until now made any sense to me. The two big reasons (as I recall) were that the combat roll was simpler and that we didn't want the MU player to be doing something different from everyone else. But, ability rolls are actually simpler than combat rolls because you don't take AC or range into account. And, there was the assumption that everyone else was using a weapon in a fight, so they would make combat rolls, but the MU alone would be doing something different by making an ability roll. In fact, the thief might be hiding in shadows to prepare for a sneak attack and the cleric might be casting a spell. So, three of the four classes can do something different already; the initial assumption is wrong. In addition, there are several good reasons to use the ability roll, so the argument to use a combat roll just made no sense to me at all.

Until now. Basing the capabilities of the Bolt on the thrown dagger is a much smaller change to the rules than any other way of doing it. THAT makes a lot of sense to me. That would be a very good reason for doing it your way.

One clear advantage that approach has is that any optional rules would be as fitted to the core rules as possible, which would seem to minimize unexpected results. I think I will start looking at possible options through that lens as well, asking questions like, Does this violate any core rules? How much of a change to the core rules is this? or Is there a core rules mechanic we can use for this? It's not the only thing I'll consider, of course, but it looks pretty helpful.

This way of doing it may sound obvious to a lot of people here, but my way of thinking about this has been different. Instead of asking, Does this change any core rules? or How can we do this with minimal change to the rules? I tend to ask, How will this best work with the rules?

My question is close to Smoot's, but there is a subtle difference. His focus is on not making mechanical changes (e.g., on the surface, Bolt is very different, but the underlying mechanic is that of a thrown dagger), or on minimizing changes to the core rules. My focus has been simply making sure the changes I make are coherent with the core rules, so I have felt much freer to make significant changes.

Maybe I'm making much ado about very little, but this may actually be the key difference between an Old School gamer and some guy who just wants to have a cool rules system to play a game a lot like the one he played when he was a kid.

Re: Magic-User Options

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:34 am
by Sir Bedivere
Solomoriah wrote:If we could think of a good title, splitting this in the same way as the Cleric Options and Specialty Priests might be a good idea.
I'll have to take a closer look at those two supplements. After the conversation here, I may just switch this to the Specialty Priests format with a section at the end that explains all of the various options.

Re: Magic-User Options

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:36 am
by Sir Bedivere
LibraryLass wrote:Or (but this is probably even less desirable because it's a substantial change) I've heard of some takes on Magic Missile, from the very earliest days, lasting for one 10-minute turn instead of a single shot, allowing the caster to fire off a missile (with a save) once per round.
Now that's an interesting idea. I'll have to think about that.

Re: Magic-User Options

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:38 am
by SmootRK
I think you are seeing my (and many others) point of view better. Bear in mind, I was never trying to quash your ideas in order to impose my own, but just to illustrate why I would not have used very many of your ideas... because it breaks with my 'way of things'.

Keep in mind also, that I do break from the core rules in several ways in my own house rules... I just don't write supplemental material in that manner (much anyway), and I encourage others in a similar fashion. In personal games, changes are fine... I just don't think the "audience" for such changes is very big.

Re: Magic-User Options

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:43 am
by Sir Bedivere
Solomoriah wrote:A thought just occurred to me...

A magic bolt is, well, magic, right?

So it hits monsters affected by magic weapons?
This came up much earlier in the thread, and my version of it explicitly does, yes. (For those just tuning in, my version of Arcane Bolt differs from Smoot's in significant ways. The details are on previous pages of the thread.)

My reasoning when I decided that earlier was that d3 damage isn't significant to creatures that are only affected by magic. I have to go back and rethink things now that I understand your & Smoot's approach better, but it won't change in r3 of the supplement. I'm including both his and my versions there.

All my rethinking will go into r4. (R3 is already a lot better than r2, and I can tell r4 is going to be a lot of work.)

Re: Magic-User Options

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:52 am
by Sir Bedivere
SmootRK wrote:I think you are seeing my (and many others) point of view better. Bear in mind, I was never trying to quash your ideas in order to impose my own, but just to illustrate why I would not have used very many of your ideas... because it breaks with my 'way of things'.
Of course. I appreciate your consideration, but I understood that, and you provided some very useful explanations. I really appreciate your willingness to hash these things out with me, and giving me the reason you wouldn't use much of my material is very valuable. I really do try to produce useful stuff, and if there's something I'm doing that makes people not want to use it, that's a problem.