Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

Thanks for the feedback, Smoot.

Armor

Good catch on the combo class / elf & armor.

SmootRK wrote: [edit] FYI - you mention that

Sir Bedivere wrote:First, I like it because it gives an interesting tweak to the class and it seems to be in the spirit of the game.

I would disagree that this is in the spirit of the game.. perhaps 3e+ era, but not the older editions this game is modeled on.

Yeah, I don't have a good feel for the 'spirit of the game' in the original. Nor, for that matter, do I have a feel for 2e or 3e, which I never played. I would say, though, that it seems kinda AD&D DMG-ish, to me. Anyway, any thoughts on whether I should keep it?

I think I'll skip the effects of armor on ability checks for this supplement, but it's an interesting idea and maybe there's a home for it elsewhere.

Cheap Transcription

I'm not sure that cheap transcription really belongs here; I was editing this early today and it seemed good at the time, but the more I think about it the more I think it really should depend on how much treasure the GM gives.

That said, I also thought a progression would be interesting, but I thought squares would be nice:

Spell Lvl / Total Cost to Transcribe
1 / 100gp
2 / 400 gp
3 / 900 gp
4 / 1600gp
5 / 2500gp (here the optional rule catches up w/ the Core Rules)
6 / 3600gp

I blame Solomoriah for sending me off to read about linear fighters and quadratic wizards.

Anyone have any thoughts about whether cheap transcription should be here or not?

Weapons

Just adding dart makes a lot of sense.

Sir Bedivere wrote:

SmootRK wrote: [edit] FYI - you mention that

Sir Bedivere wrote:First, I like it because it gives an interesting tweak to the class and it seems to be in the spirit of the game.

I would disagree that this is in the spirit of the game.. perhaps 3e+ era, but not the older editions this game is modeled on.

Yeah, I don't have a good feel for the 'spirit of the game' in the original. Nor, for that matter, do I have a feel for 2e or 3e, which I never played. I would say, though, that it seems kinda AD&D DMG-ish, to me. Anyway, any thoughts on whether I should keep it?
I think I'll skip the effects of armor on ability checks for this supplement, but it's an interesting idea and maybe there's a home for it elsewhere.

Well personally, I like the simplicity of simply saying MU (and/or subclasses) cannot wear armor (elf and a couple of my house-rule races aside). Basically diverting the exceptions to Armor use to the race as exceptions. One exception to this, is that I believe MU ought to have access to Bucklers... I don't think that really breaks the game. I even have an old (actual) lead figure from the early 80's of such a wizard (or perhaps it is a druid) looking a lot like a Gandalf visage.

Again, that is not to say that one should not address the AC of wizards. Like I was saying above, additional spell options could potentially assist here, as can minor magical items.

For instance, a Spell called Distance Distortion could work like a minor Blur spell, making the caster much more difficult to hit by missile weapons. Perhaps a spell called Bone Skin can give the MU a temporary immunity to piercing/slashing equivalent to what Skeletons have. A spell called Summon Guard Dog might call a single such creature that viciously guards the MU against any that approach (but is not usable in combat otherwise; one cannot command it to attack foes that are not actively attacking/advancing the MU).

And, one can easily put these spells into items as minor magic items. A Ring that can produce one of these effects once or more each day (or other low level spells). Scrolls of course. I don't recommend giving out magic items during character creation, but the GM can certainly insert appropriate stuff early in an adventure to give a boost (any GM would know that beginning MU characters need a boost). Also on the more campaign control end of things, perhaps introduce some sort of Mage Guild for such characters to give cheap/easy access to minor magicks.

Perhaps the Game Master might be given advice to have beginning MU start with more spells in the spell book. One Offensive, two Defensive, and one General Purpose. Of the 2 defensive, I would suggest one that personally protects the MU, and the other of a more general protection or having the ability to apply to others.

Again, my ideas (beyond bonus spells) is to address most issues for MU classes by the creative creation of spells that can be used, inserted into magical items, or handed out as scrolls. Just including all the extra goodness of the Libram Magica (for instance) can go a long way in providing and exponential expansion to the abilities of MU (especially when combined into the creation of new magical items that incorporate new effects).

Another idea you might explore, not covered anywhere yet, is that MU have some minor alchemy ability, with the ability to craft unguents and salves and minor potions. Perhaps given some supplies (added to your equipment list) they have the ability in one day to produce one of a list of minor effects (with the potions lasting no more than 1 day before spoilage):
1. hard skin - skeleton effect
2. blending - increase hide, AC bonus against missile
3. poison for a blade (increases damage by 1d4 per strike, save vs. poison for no extra damage)
4. magic blade - makes the blade/weapon magical (in order to hit foes; does not actually produce a bonus to hit though).
5. etc. just some examples to get started.
Perhaps the little effect is randomly determined by GM each day based upon the MU grazing for various ingredients, or the character can choose one such effect each day??

Just more to get the creativity going.

Another idea that is all new, is perhaps give the MU some ability to Specialize in some spells. They get ranks at the same rate as Fighters. Each rank gives +1 (or +2) caster levels (distance, duration, damage, etc.) when casting that specific spell. Multiple ranks can be applied to single spells (perhaps some limits such as cannot become more effective than twice the caster's actual level). The caster must choose from known spells only, and cannot "hold" ranks for later (no banking ranks for when Fireball become available, then all of sudden the caster throws 10 dice balls of flames around soon as he gets the spell).

Note, this is not a completely fleshed out idea... it likely needs some thought and testing.

SmootRK wrote:One thing I notice about your supplement is the wording for casting in armor. The Armored Casting is an "Elf Thing", not necessarily a combination class feature.

Well, I don't know. The entry on this says:

Combination Classes

To become a member of a combination class, a character must meet the requirements of both classes. Combination class characters use the best attack bonus and the best saving throw values of their original two classes. One combination class is mentioned in the Elf racial description:

Fighter/Magic-User: These characters may both fight and cast magic spells; further, they are allowed to cast magic spells while wearing armor. A Fighter/Magic-User must gain experience equal to the combined requirements of both base classes. Elven Fighter/Magic-Users roll six-sided dice (d6) for hit points.

So, the only combo-class mentioned is in the Elf racial description, but there is nothing that actually says no one else can be combo-classed. In fact, the general rule seems to be that if a character of any race meets the requirements of both classes, the character can do it.

Then, the specific description of F/MU doesn't say anything about Elves until the last sentence. The way I read this, a human F/MU would be able to wear armor and cast spells. If that whole description were specifically about elves, there would be no need to specify that "Elven Fighter/Magic-Users roll six-sided dice ..."

Also, if only elves can combo-class, there's no need to mention it in my supplement because the only characters the rule would apply to would be elven F/MUs.

Combo classes must be mentioned in the racial description. In the Core Rules, there's just one combo class, F/MU, and the only allowed race is Elf. In my supplements, the only combo class added is MU/T, which is allowed to Gnomes and also retroactively to Elves.

You can't combo class just because you want to... that's a bit too modern for the Core or for any supplement I'd put on the Downloads page.

So the Core Rules are written this way to take optional rules into account? Kind of like a stub that you intended to add things to later?

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing anything about combo classes. My point is, the way the Core Rules reads led me to believe anyone could combo-class, and that any combo-class would be okay, as long as the character was able to choose either class. It lays out a general rule and reads as if other options are possible, and as if the Elf is simply one example of a general principle.

Anyway, if only Elves can combo-class, there is no need to say "Elves" in MU Options. My current text works fine:

This rule has no effect on combination classed Magic-Users (e.g., Fighter / Magic-Users).

Except, I might want to change it to "has no effect on Fighter / Magic-Users" since that's the only kind the Core Rules allow.

Sir Bedivere wrote:So the Core Rules are written this way to take optional rules into account? Kind of like a stub that you intended to add things to later?

Yes, exactly that way.

Sir Bedivere wrote:Just to be clear, I'm not arguing anything about combo classes. My point is, the way the Core Rules reads led me to believe anyone could combo-class, and that any combo-class would be okay, as long as the character was able to choose either class. It lays out a general rule and reads as if other options are possible, and as if the Elf is simply one example of a general principle.

You're the only person I know who read it that way. Each race lists the classes available, and only the Elf lists a combo class. What isn't specifically allowed is forbidden.

Sir Bedivere wrote:Anyway, if only Elves can combo-class, there is no need to say "Elves" in MU Options. My current text works fine:

This rule has no effect on combination classed Magic-Users (e.g., Fighter / Magic-Users).

Except, I might want to change it to "has no effect on Fighter / Magic-Users" since that's the only kind the Core Rules allow.

No, I'd stick to the less specific version, since at least one commonly used supplement has an additional combo class.

Like I said a couple of posts ago. I would simply leave the armor stuff out, opting to leave those exceptions for Races to cover, as the core rules do for Elves.

Magic-Users in armor (aside from the elf thing) is definitely not old-school.

This does lead to a potential change for the Core Rules 3rd edition, Perhaps a small tweak in the wording in the Human Race (restrictions) "Humans may be any single class". A single word added to clarify that.
Also, I think it would be OK to put in the MU-Thief combination class into the core rules. But these issues ought to be addressed elsewhere.

Solomoriah wrote: You're the only person I know who read it that way. Each race lists the classes available, and only the Elf lists a combo class. What isn't specifically allowed is forbidden.

That's an awfully new-school line of thought, though, innit? That way lies feats.

LibraryLass wrote:

Solomoriah wrote: You're the only person I know who read it that way. Each race lists the classes available, and only the Elf lists a combo class. What isn't specifically allowed is forbidden.

That's an awfully new-school line of thought, though, innit? That way lies feats.

I'm afraid I don't quite get your meaning.