Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

So, on my discussion of "rethinking many options into spells", Solomoriah suggests a spell mechanic of turning higher level spell slots into "lesser spells". This can be worked into an actual spell instead of a sort of ability. For instance:

Spell Demotion, Lesser
MU 2
range: special
duration: special (or up to 10 minutes).

By use of Lesser Spell Demotion, the spell caster may produce any personally known level 1 spell (ie in his spellbook) on a subsequent round. This ability may be held up to 10 minutes or until the spell is produced, thereby ending the Lesser Spell Demotion effect. The spell produced must follow all necessary requirements, just as if the spell caster was producing the spell effect normally; any required materials or situations must still be available per that spell description.

Spell Demotion
MU 4
range: special
duration: special (or up to 10 minutes).

By use of Spell Demotion, the spell caster may produce any personally known 1st through 3rd level spell (ie in his spellbook) on subsequent rounds. A total of 3 spell levels are available, so the caster may use this to produce 3 first level spells within those 10 minute, a 1st and 2nd level spell, or a single 3rd level spell during the duration. This ability may be held up to 10 minutes or until all the spells (3 spell levels) are produced, thereby ending the Spell Demotion effect. The spells produced must follow all necessary requirements, just as if the spell caster was producing the spell effect normally; any required materials or situations must still be available per that spell description.

Etc. as higher level versions might be applicable as well.

And just to keep this line of thinking going, here is Arcane Bolt (my version anyhow) as a spell:

Arcane Bolt
MU 1
Range: 30 feet
Duration: 10 minutes

Upon casting Arcane Bolt, the spell caster acquires the ability to strike others in combat with a bolt of magical force once per round. This bolt may be used either melee or as ranged attack (10/20/30) and deals 1d3 points of physical damage. The spell caster must roll to hit, with his or her Prime Requisite modifying the attack and damage rolls. In the same manner as normal spells, the arcane caster must have at least one hand free and be able to speak in order to produce an arcane bolt; thus, binding and gagging a spellcaster is an effective means of preventing him or her from using the attack form.

The damage type dealt is a generic concussive force like a sling bullet. While the Arcane Bolt is produced in a similar way to other sorts of magic (spells), once the effect is launched it instantly becomes a non-magical force in its own right. It cannot be used against foes with immunity to non-magical weaponry.

Arcane Bolt, Greater
MU ??
Range: 30 feet
Duration: 10 minutes

As Arcane Bolt but bolt does 1d4 damage per strike and the caster can choose an alternate form of energy than the concussive force. Fire, Acid, Cold, Negative, or Positive Energies are all possible but it is chosen at the time of casting and remains throughout the duration. In addition, the Greater Arcane Bolt counts as magic for purposes of striking creatures immune to normal (non-magical) weaponry.

...Damn, looks like I missed all the excitement.
Which sucks because I had stuff to say, but at this point I'm so far behind everyone else I might as well be the Donny of the conversation.

I would like to say one thing though.

artikid wrote:There's quite a few things a low-level MU can do when he's used up his spell(s), this is just a short list:

Throw daggers
Prepare traps
Plan/coordinate the group's combat strategy
Help characters that are down/take them out of combat
Use burning oil
Map
Search for traps and secret doors
Direct/use henchmen or wardogs
Interact wih NPCs

Yes, those are things the magic user can do. But the class isn't called the dagger thrower or trap perparer or strategy planner or downed ally helper or oil burner or mapper or secret door finder or henchman director or NPC interactor.
It's called the Magic User. I think it's good that they should have some sort of at will magical course of action, even if it's not powerful.

At-will Detect Magic doesn't break the bank, I don't think. Detect Magic is a pretty minor effect. And it's also pretty flavorful, sort of a "Second sight" thing. Metro's way works, I think. I would disagree with Smoot saying it's a constructive change. It's clearly an additional option and thus (if I understand the terminology) perscriptive.

I'd rather have these options available without the extra work of tracking cantrips, tracking cantrips is just more frustration for the magic-user.

Smoot: I like what you've got here, mostly. Being able to use the Spell Demotion spell for any qualifying spell the caster knows is interesting. But I think the original, ability version is definitely fine by me.

EDIT: But... why doesn't the greater bolt get an electrical option?

just writing quickly... yes Electric would be an option there. These were quick and dirty drafts, just to get the point across about such abilities.

Point being, instead of various powers which break from the traditional mold... most concepts can instead be ported to spell effects directly (and thus keeping some traditional sense of balance). Then, looking for a boost to MU power comes more so from increasing number of spells.. ie Bonus Spells from INT being the main contender and overwhelmingly supported option.

The Detect Magic thing being Constructive (in my mind) comes from the fact that if such an ability were present, then the standard Detect Magic spell (for MU anyway) becomes redundant and irrelevant, or at least less relevant (changing the nature of the the core rules as written)... not in the sense that one can layer it onto the MU (in that way it is OK). Of course, subjective views on this... depends on one's paradigm.

Also, I am with LL on the Magic-User not being the torch bearer or sidekick manager. They need something they can do round to round that fits their M.O. The items mentioned, can all be filled by any character, not just the otherwise quiet MU who is waiting for his special moment to fire off his singular ability (or small supply of such single use effects).

Smoot, note that your demotion spells are more powerful than the rule I offered. You're treating spell levels as mere numbers, such that one 3rd level spell is three 1st level spells. I can tell you now, that way lies madness... spell levels in BFRPG (and in the original sources as well) don't really work that way.

If I allow demotion, it's slot for slot, just as I wrote it.

Also... a couple of pages back, someone (Sir Bedivere I think) commented that the view that magic-users are supposed to be underpowered at low level because they're overpowered at high level was somehow wrong. Right or wrong, it's exactly how it was done in the original games BFRPG mimics. Google "linear fighters, quadratic magic-users" for more discussion on the topic.

Solomoriah wrote:Also... a couple of pages back, someone (Sir Bedivere I think) commented that the view that magic-users are supposed to be underpowered at low level because they're overpowered at high level was somehow wrong. Right or wrong, it's exactly how it was done in the original games BFRPG mimics. Google "linear fighters, quadratic magic-users" for more discussion on the topic.

Just be careful with "linear warriors, quadratic wizards" That leads you to TVTropes.

Solomoriah wrote:Smoot, note that your demotion spells are more powerful than the rule I offered. You're treating spell levels as mere numbers, such that one 3rd level spell is three 1st level spells. I can tell you now, that way lies madness... spell levels in BFRPG (and in the original sources as well) don't really work that way.

If I allow demotion, it's slot for slot, just as I wrote it.

Technically, I suggested that a 4th level spell burned for 3 such spell levels. But the finer points are certainly debatable. I was providing example that different approaches that are not (as you, Solomoriah say) constructive in their nature, but can be inserted piecemeal as (prescriptively as you also so coin) as individual spells.
In this way, not every character nor npc need have access unless they specifically choose to pursue that spell (and difficulty acquiring is also a point of control for the GM). Characters may then still choose to opt for more powerful spells instead of preparing for the more functionality of such a Demotion effect.

Like I keep saying though, it all lies in one's perspective and how they want things to work. People are being offered conflicting advice from singular sources. On one hand, it is suggested to pursue these "prescriptive" methods, then offered more "constructive" options. I am not saying one way or the other is right nor wrong... just providing concrete examples that show alternative methods to the suggested options... things that essentially achieve the same goals or effects with different paths or methods (finer points aside).

[edit] and yes, I still have more inclination towards such "plug-in" prescriptive options than other methods. This discussion has led me to give more thought to my Arcane Bolt ability in my house rules... not sure if I shall change it at this time, but certainly given more to think on about it.

just one time I would like to see one of these MU supplements take away some of the power the high level MU has in balance of the power they are giving them in the lower. Maybe I haven't been reading them close enough.

Hywaywolf wrote:just one time I would like to see one of these MU supplements take away some of the power the high level MU has in balance of the power they are giving them in the lower. Maybe I haven't been reading them close enough.

ha touche

In defense of the supplements, the overwhelming amount of play for most groups I have ever encountered is in the low-level range, occasionally getting to the mid-levels. This does not invalidate your point, but certainly is a mitigating factor.