Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

Somewhat related:
One thing that would really help MUs is a small rule on casting spells even if hit in combat or otherwise distracted.
Like a CON or WIS Ability check.

Here is another idea, instead of giving various powers/abilities out. Instead make them into spells directly. As an example, take the mentioned Arcane Bolt... 1st level spell allows MU to cast about small impacting "force" either as melee or ranged (10/20/30) dealing 1d3 points of damage. The ability lasts 1 hour (and duplicates the effects otherwise mentioned in the description earlier)... using 1 first level spell slot. Then perhaps a higher level version of the spell can be made (slightly more damage, works as "magic" against foes, and perhaps has other 'energy types'.), maybe as a third level spell.

However, the Detect Magic spell already exists, so adding the ability to do so at will is one of those "constructive changes", that is it changes the rules as written, and makes the spell that already exists into something less useful.

Likewise, there are spells for "Armor" already in place. I would rather modify/add spells that come from a supplement than to modify the core rules. An AD&D spell "phantom armor" has been around a long time (illusionist spell I believe) which does great giving 1 hp/level of damage reduction and AC equal to plate (until gone). This also solves the Armor Class issue for MU for most purposes.

I think that just a few small things give a lot to the MU. Arcane bolt is the main one in my games that helps solve the issue of giving MU something to do, but I can see where one does not want to necessarily add to a repertoire of powers... so giving it as a longer duration spell might alleviate that issue. But, are there more such ideas that can instead be modified to be spells as well? That would solve most issues with most people looking at this idea for MU Options.

artikid wrote:Slings seemed a decent way of expanding the MUs weapons repertoire without handing out too much.

I agree on a purely metagame basis, but it fails for me on the basis of flavor. I can see thieves, fighters, and of course clerics being willing to practice with a sling enough to figure the dang thing out, but magic-users? Just doesn't work for me.

Sir Bedivere wrote:The game effectively has an inherent Read Magic since the caster can prepare it from memory.

Um, no.

Unless you allowed my "long-form casting" OR my "cast at will" options, the magic-user has to wait until he sleeps to prepare Read Magic. An "inherent" ability to read magic would be a lot more liberal than that. Also, read magic cast once applies to one work of magic; two spell books need two castings. So the inherent read magic option is actually much nicer to the magic-user than the standard rule, long-form casting, and cast at will.

The thing you would need here is one list of options which used together, isn't going to throw things too far out the window. Which means you can't have "if you do this, don't do that." A bundle of non-exclusive items (bonus spells, cast-w/demotion... additional weapon options?... er, rapid to lvl3 XP table?). How much of what we have does that leave out?

The thing is that each of these ideas tries to adjust things in different ways. Give them ways to be more concrete in combat. Give them ways to "survive" combat. Give them more to do than one spell at 1st level, without killing things (worse) at higher levels. The lion's share of what you have is individually prescriptive, but collectively constructive. It's a dremel. You don't just plug it in and go, you have to pick which bit is right for the job (yeah, that kind of gets in the way of multiple options, but it's not a perfect metaphor). Continuing in this vein really expands what you need to say - presenting the options, and discussing the positives and negatives of each (for the magic user, and in terms of game balance). This would be a lot deeper than most Options (Specialty Priests is the closest in versatility, but that addresses variety balanced within the class, not between classes). It's "Discussion of various methods to improve early survivability or increase the utility of low-level magic-users, The Supplement." You don't have to include every idea or variant, just the ones with the most traction. Which might be a bit much.

SmootRK wrote:Here is another idea, instead of giving various powers/abilities out. Instead make them into spells directly. As an example, take the mentioned Arcane Bolt... 1st level spell allows MU to cast about small impacting "force" either as melee or ranged (10/20/30) dealing 1d3 points of damage. The ability lasts 1 hour (and duplicates the effects otherwise mentioned in the description earlier)... using 1 first level spell slot. Then perhaps a higher level version of the spell can be made (slightly more damage, works as "magic" against foes, and perhaps has other 'energy types'.), maybe as a third level spell.

I just made it a cantrip(single shot). Magic damage justified, and you have a scant handful if you aren't mage-handing and irritating your way through the day. Just the right cantrip for Mr. Macross Magic Missle Massacre. If you wanted a little more functionality, you could make it a multi-round effect (shooting 1/round), but that would really need to be balance with the other cantrips. Of course, this list also includes Mage Hand (moderate range 1lb TK for 10 rounds, or one STR-level shove), Transfigure (temporarily changes small things... like making yourself blonde, turning small white stones into diamonds, or iron arrowheads into silver), Inscribe (carve perfectly into any nonmagical surface), and Summon Vermin (call up... one bug).

This is all issues for/from a different supplement, though. Much like defensive fighting (combat options)- it does not say it's only for melee attacks. If you aren't otherwise acting, fight defensively.

I'm playing an illusionist now in our alternate game (where I get to play while CrazyCrypt GMs). We are using bonus spells, and my character is 2nd level, so I'm getting four 1st level spells a day with my 17 INT. But I'm not even using all of them every day, and I'm still in play almost constantly.

I love playing an illusionist. Never be fool enough to let me play one in your game. Most of the time, I'm looking for a way to fool the NPCs, monsters, etc. into believing we are more powerful and/or more numerous than they are prepared for. I like to force a morale check before we ever cross swords. Of course, the bane of my existence are mindless undead, constructs, etc. Such is life. Give me a living, thinking opponent and I'm going to have some fun. Might even cast a spell.

Of course, I need to be 3rd level before I have the possibility of being really dangerous (Phantasmal Force). But guess what? I got a Wand of Illusion. Gonna burn every last charge, and gonna enjoy doing it.

Solomoriah wrote:Of course, I need to be 3rd level before I have the possibility of being really dangerous (Phantasmal Force). But guess what? I got a Wand of Illusion. Gonna burn every last charge, and gonna enjoy doing it.

This little thing is one of the reasons I prefer "channeling items" instead of charged. It evens out the power curve more than a sudden massive increase of power (that is ultimately lost completely later). But yes, noted! No Illusionists for Solomoriah in my game!

SmootRK wrote:However, the Detect Magic spell already exists, so adding the ability to do so at will is one of those "constructive changes", that is it changes the rules as written, and makes the spell that already exists into something less useful.

I've given all mages the ability to sense magic in a foot per level range per item. They have to take an action and do nothing else but concentrate for a round and they can sense there is something magical near them within their range. What it is or how powerful it is still takes the detect magic and identify spells.

Example : Torqlue the Magnificent (1st level magic user) just returned from an adventure with his companions and they are splitting up the treasure found so he concentrates and focuses on the treasure laying in front of him. He senses something in the pile but can not tell what it is (1 round) so he speaks up to tell his companions. They want him to go through all the pile. Each item individually has to be within a foot of him and takes a round per item but finally after hour of sensing he finds a gold coin that radiates magic and is exhausted mentally. Now he has to rest so he can memorize a detect magic spell if he has it in his book or they can take it to someone that will buy it from them.

Now if Torqlue the Magnificent was 10th level the only change would be the distance the items have to be near him. Everything would be the same.

If the gm wanted to he could add a search roll (use the secret door mechanics) to allow him to sense the specific item in the pile but that would make the detect magic spell totally useless other when using that spell to detect invisible creatures or illusions. Sense magic doe not make the item or such glow, the mage only senses the magic in the most general way. Think of how Jedi feel disturbances in the force but on a very limited scale.

I'm testing out a variant of it with the druid class to sense disturbances in nature. In my game the druid can sense when something is not natural nearby like undead or not belonging to the world properly aka demons and such. The druid can not affect the undead like a cleric can but the druid can sense that an abomination like undead or demons are nearby since that is a form of something that is unnatural.

Note that I am not necessarily against a Detect Magic ability (and I like what Metro has shared), just pointing out that it is one of those aspects that "Change the Core Rules" to some extent. IE Constructive change.

So...
If made into a Cantrip or Spell (lets say "Minor Magical Detection") then the new such ability is just another 'spell' and is thus Prescriptive (as Solo terms it).

Also, an Arcane Bolt (ability) is constructive in the sense that it fundamentally changes the nature of the game vibe (if not in the technical sense of a "change" to a game mechanic/spell/option), as it is layered on... but if made into a spell (or cantrip) in some way, it is simply another spell; ie Prescriptive change.

I had originally thought about making it a cantrip aka a lesser version of Detect Magic but I chose to make it a class ability instead. I treated it similar to how the cleric has the turn undead, the druid has the calm/befriend animals, etc.

My group is trying out the Arcane bolt also but I changed it slightly. They can cast it unlimited times per day but only once per round. It is treated as a ranged weapon so they have to make a to hit roll with range modifiers I gave it the range of a sling also and the damage of 1d4. This does not over power the mage any and gives him the ability at low levels not to be a one trick pony, no offence meant towards the equine characters.

I gave them two versions to look over and try. One was a pure cantrip that had a 50' range with a d3 damage with an autohit (lesser magic missile) and the version they are using now (see above).

So far it has saved the group because the mage actually got into the combat with it and dropped a creature that the group was pounding on and was getting pounded by. I do consider it a magical weapon but only to those creatures that require a +1 or less magical weapon to be hurt with otherwise it is not strong enough to damage those creatures.

artikid wrote:I don't think granting extra powers to low-level MUs really gives them "more to do", I think it enforces spell-dependency and the "walking magic item" syndrome.
The more stuff the player gets, the less likely -IMHO- he is to use his or her brain.

To be consistent, you would need to reduce the abilities of all of the other classes at first level. You need to keep the fighter from too much reliance on armor and the whole "walking sword" syndrome, right? If we want our players to be thinkers, that would be the way to go.

I think this is a lot more dependent on the player and the campaign than the rules.

artikid wrote:There's quite a few things a low-level MU can do when he's used up his spell(s), this is just a short list:

Throw daggers
Prepare traps
Plan/coordinate the group's combat strategy
Help characters that are down/take them out of combat
Use burning oil
Map
Search for traps and secret doors
Direct/use henchmen or wardogs
Interact wih NPCs

Yes, throwing daggers & burning oil sounds like fun. But the rest of this is not why the young wizard spent all those years in wizard's school. Plus, I'm not sure the worst fighter in the group should be directing the group's combat effort, or how he learned to set traps. That said, this is the role they are forced into, which is primarily a support role. That's fine, but it's not as fun, IMHO.

I would much rather have several spells with significant chances of failure that I can cast multiple times than one or two sure-fire spells I can only cast once per day.

artikid wrote:Also, the way BFRPG has been written, the MU is the fastest character in the party.
This means he can flee combat faster than anyone else ;P

Very true.

artikid wrote:Re Thieves: their abilities have success chances, at low levels this is going to have a huge effect.

Yes, but targets of spells generally get saving throws, so the MU can fail as well.

artikid wrote:Re MUs as liabilities: When confronting Kobolds or Goblins a MU with Sleep is a great thing, and Charm Person is very powerful as well.

Sure, once. I actually think the Sleep spell is too powerful for first level (though I'm not suggesting a change). Anyway, keep in mind that the MU may not get Sleep at first level; he or she may get stuck with Detect Magic.