Magic-User Options

[Sir Bedivere]

My list for a magic-user supplement is much shorter. For sure:

- Add clubs and staves, but no slings. Seriously, have you ever TRIED to hit anything with a sling? I might consider darts, but of course I'd have to add them to the game first.
- Bonus spells for intelligence.
- Saving throw bonus (would have to evaluate this carefully)

Maybe:

- artikid's armor rule

And no crossbows, I assume. Dagger hurlers it is, then.

The saving throw bonus was just something to make high Intelligence more desirable for the MU, which the bonus spells would do well enough. Maybe there's no need for this.

I like artikid's armor rule just because it's interesting and it sounds like fun. I haven't really thought through it.

EDIT: Hm, I actually have tried to use a sling, and you're right. On the other hand, I can't hit anything moving with a throwing knife, either. Darts could be interesting. I guess I'm thinking of missile weapons because club and staff don't represent any real improvement in the MU's capabilities. And maybe that's the point?

What about starting at max HP? Is that the kind of thing you'd include in a prescriptive supplement?

[LibraryLass]

I'd almost sooner give them crossbows... knife throwing is pretty tricky.

[artikid]

Hullo,
A few more thoughts

Crossbows, spears, slings, dagger-throwing: I guess that yes, crossbows may be easier to use than slings or daggers, but crossbows deal too much damage and at too long a range. Thery are too much to give away so carelessly. The same goes for spears. Slings seemed a decent way of expanding the MUs weapons repertoire without handing out too much.

Armor: I really think that spell-casting in armor for single-class MU is a bad idea without any failure chances. BTW my suggested rule should be rewritten as to imply that it only applies to armor the MU is not proficient with (that is combo-class MUs can cast spells in armor they can use thanks to their other class).

Arcane Bolt and other auto casting spells: Sincerely? I loathe Arcane Bolt.
It may be an ages-old houserule or simply a Dragon Age import, but a magic ranged weapon that can never be taken away, can always be used and never runs out of charges...?
Add to this Auto-Detect magic and Auto Read magic and we are really going for crazy broken.
We are already handing out bonus spells for INT and 0-level spells, it looks more than enough to me.

The fact that a MU can get all those together (0-level spells, bonus INT spells, errorless spellcasting in up to chain armor, crossbows and spears, arcane bolt, auto detect magic) makes for a seriously broken game.

Also MUs are the most powerful class at high levels, so they have to pay for that power in some way, that cost is sucking (but not really) at low-level.

If you are not yet sold on this, remember what I said about single class MUs and multi-class MUs?
Here are the numbers:


(thief added for comparison purposes with another single-class character)

You'll see that single class MUs and multi-class MUs are incredibly close regarding AB and HPs with the single class MU always leading in spellcasting ability.

So what's the point of being a multi-class MU if we hand out all that stuff?
What's the point of taking any other class?


EDITED

[Sir Bedivere]

artikid, I think you make a lot of good points.

I was assuming that the GM would have house rules for the other classes that justified the bigger changes, but that's not necessarily a safe assumption, and I didn't think out what those changes would be, either. I guess I was in too big of a hurry, alas.

Back to the prescriptive idea.

Again, artikid, good point on casting in armor; fighter/MU multiclass shouldn't be penalized.

The game effectively has an inherent Read Magic since the caster can prepare it from memory.

I do like the inherent Detect Magic (touch only). At first glance, I don't think there are any significant balance issues, though it may let the MU snag magic gear if he's willing to steal from his own party. On the other hand, once he gets the Detect Magic spell, that will be the case anyway unless the party insists on an outside MU checking everything.

Also MUs are the most powerful class at high levels, so they have to pay for that power in some way, that cost is sucking (but not really) at low-level.

I've never seen a single-class MU survive that long. I need to look at the high-level MU to see how much more powerful they are, I guess.

Also:

too weak at low levels + too strong at high levels does NOT equal a balanced class

If that's the issue, then we need stronger 1st level and weaker 10th level mages.

Your design philosophy may differ, of course.

If you are not yet sold on this, remember what I said about single class MUs and multi-class MUs?

...

You'll see that single class MUs and multi-class MUs are incredibly close regarding AB and HPs with the single class MU always leading in spellcasting ability.

So what's the point of being a multi-class MU if we hand out all that stuff?
What's the point of taking any other class?

Yep, good point.

So, I guess this means rethinking all this.

[artikid]

Sir Bedivere,
Actually auto-cast Detect Magic and Read Magic are not that bad per se, and are a house rule I've seen quite a lot around my gaming circles.

too weak at low levels + too strong at high levels does NOT equal a balanced class

I agree with you, but its almost all we got.

If that's the issue, then we need stronger 1st level and weaker 10th level mages.

We'd have to rewite the game from the ground up.

3.x tried to do this with more spells at lower level, less at higher level and an armored spellcasting rule with failure chances.
However it also boosted other classes significantly, Sneak attack anyone?

I think that INT bonus, 0-level spells and a slightly expanded weapons repertoire go a long way in salvaging low-level MUs.

[Sir Bedivere]

Of course, rather than HP, AB, and spells, another way to look at this is that the thief in leather armor has a 10% less chance of getting hit every time he's attacked. From second level, they have on average 2.5 more HP as well. These aren't really that big, but they aren't nothing.

Now, let's look at damage dealing capabilities.

The MU can melee and reach out to 30' w/ a d4 weapon. They get one spell at first level, so one chance to do something bigger than that per day. However, if the GM has them roll to see which spell they start with, they might end up with Detect Magic, so NO chance to do something bigger.

The thief, on the other hand, can use two-handed swords and heavy crossbows, so close-in they can deal up to d10 damage, and they can reach out to 240 w/ a d8 weapon, and they can do these things all day long. Plus, they have all the thief's skills. If we consider them to be the equivalent of spells, then the thief gets 7 unlimited spells, although with a chance to fail. Not, mind you, 7 spells per day; 7 unlimited spells.

The difference in the ability to affect the outcome of a day's adventuring is huge at low levels.

I'm not arguing for any particular change with this comparison. I just want to point out that there are other things to consider than HP & AB.

Let's look at it another way. One big reason to add options to the MU is that, at low levels, he has nothing to do most of the time. For the most part, most of the day in a dungeon, the low-level MU is a liability, and any party would be much better off with another thief, cleric, or fighter.

[Sir Bedivere]

too weak at low levels + too strong at high levels does NOT equal a balanced class

I agree with you, but its almost all we got.

If that's the issue, then we need stronger 1st level and weaker 10th level mages.

We'd have to rewite the game from the ground up.

Yep, and I'm certainly not arguing for that. There are a lot of ways to help the 1st level MU, but little we can do about the 10th level one, at least, that I can think of. So, I focused on things that would help low-level MUs, but I guess I really didn't consider the effects at high level or multi-class characters as much as I should have.

I think that INT bonus, 0-level spells and a slightly expanded weapons repertoire go a long way in salvaging low-level MUs.

I think you're right. I might like auto-Detect Magic, w/ touch, added in.

[SmootRK]

I don't know if I would call using the Arcane Bolt (at least the version I utilize) broken. Similar to having a dagger, yet less damage (but no ammo worries). At higher levels it is not really even utilized; a waste of time compared to spells that are much more effective. Anyway, its intent was not to empower the MU, but to give them more to do throughout the adventuring day that is in line with their Modus Operandi (ie throwing magical effects around), especially for the low level individuals who operate like "walking single-charge items". It was always about giving the low level MU the ability to interact during encounters instead of simply running about trying to avoid (though they still do this), waiting for that moment when their one power might be useful.

This line of thought is likewise why I do not mind the use of Bonus Spells for higher Prime Requisite (INT for MU).

When one is rationalizing balance, one must bear in mind that at the higher levels, the lower level powers become less relevant during that time period... not useless, but certainly less relevant because of higher level powers, magical items available, and the other party members powers and abilities (each contributing in their own way to the party's success).. And I say members with an S, as the party members all contribute to this 'equation' of insubstantial factors.

I am not saying the point for point comparisons are not useful in determining balance, but it does not necessarily paint the whole picture. Sometimes these non-substantive factors play their part in determining what is balanced. A power that is never used (whether spell or ability) is not really affecting balance any longer.

[Sir Bedivere]

Just from a technical standpoint, it looks like MUs can use shields, as long as they drop them for a bit to cast spells.

[artikid]

I don't think granting extra powers to low-level MUs really gives them "more to do", I think it enforces spell-dependency and the "walking magic item" syndrome.
The more stuff the player gets, the less likely -IMHO- he is to use his or her brain.
There's quite a few things a low-level MU can do when he's used up his spell(s), this is just a short list:

Throw daggers
Prepare traps
Plan/coordinate the group's combat strategy
Help characters that are down/take them out of combat
Use burning oil
Map
Search for traps and secret doors
Direct/use henchmen or wardogs
Interact wih NPCs

We also have to remember the most powerful MU special ability: the access to restricted magic items like scrolls, wands and staves (although this is shared with Multi-class MU).

Also, the way BFRPG has been written, the MU is the fastest character in the party.
This means he can flee combat faster than anyone else ;P

Re Thieves: their abilities have success chances, at low levels this is going to have a huge effect.
Also, I'd like to point out they never outshine fighters in combat or MUs for special stuff which is the real point.

Re MUs as liabilities: When confronting Kobolds or Goblins a MU with Sleep is a great thing, and Charm Person is very powerful as well. A 1st level cleric or thief is just a slightly less efficient fighter.